View Poll Results: Should we go to war?
Yes!
49
32.67%
No!
87
58.00%
Don't Know !
14
9.33%
Voters: 150. This poll is closed
Should we go to war?Just visit and vote
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Should we go to war?Just visit and vote
Should we go to war? Some would say we never ceased the war, but should we really send the boys in to Baghdad? (watch 'Blackhawk Down' to see potential outcomes)No need to comment, Just vote, it would be interesting to see if we military guys give the same statistics as the various polls out there at the moment. It does not matter about the fact we may have to do the job, what is your personal view?
Last edited by Tigs2; 23rd Jan 2003 at 20:13.
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Woff
Sorry you are right it was a bit thoughtless not to include the 'don't know'. I can't get in to add the category as the poll can only be edited by moderators(I Think)
Tigs
Now moderated to include Don't Know option !!
Sorry you are right it was a bit thoughtless not to include the 'don't know'. I can't get in to add the category as the poll can only be edited by moderators(I Think)
Tigs
Now moderated to include Don't Know option !!
Last edited by PPRuNe Radar; 25th Jan 2003 at 00:29.
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I'll go where I'm sent and do what I'm asked but for the first time in my military career I feel like the aggressor and don't have a warm glow about it. This must be the first time in a long time that we are starting a war. I'd feel happier if President Blair produced some of this overwhelming evidence and am still alarmed we've gone this far in prep and deployment without a Parlimentary vote. It's just a matter of time before someone gets hurt...
Just a numbered other
Hmmm...
Falklands, didn't mind at all, we were delivering our own from an aggressor
Gulf, no problem, repelling an invader from a friendly state.
This one.... Glad I'm out as I think I'd be in Colchester rather than fight for Bush's and Bliar's egos.
Falklands, didn't mind at all, we were delivering our own from an aggressor
Gulf, no problem, repelling an invader from a friendly state.
This one.... Glad I'm out as I think I'd be in Colchester rather than fight for Bush's and Bliar's egos.
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To the moderator who put in 'Don't Know' Thanks very much!
Ark Royal
I agree, this one has a really bad feel to it. As for Blair, I think he is finished. If we stop prior to conflict it wont change things, he has lost the public anyway, and if we do fight, I will be suprised if he makes it to the next election.
Ark Royal
I agree, this one has a really bad feel to it. As for Blair, I think he is finished. If we stop prior to conflict it wont change things, he has lost the public anyway, and if we do fight, I will be suprised if he makes it to the next election.
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It just got worse....
Can you add, "No, because they have no idea of how to run a war" Tigs? lol
Rather than board spam, I've added this link in Jet Blast.
This is what happens, when civilian "Strategists" get involved in war planning
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=79394
Rather than board spam, I've added this link in Jet Blast.
This is what happens, when civilian "Strategists" get involved in war planning
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=79394
Evertonian
Sorry chaps, wandered into this forum & thought I'd have a vote.
I have to agree with adrian mole. The "west" are the agressors here, until there is tangible evidence to suggest otherwise. If we live by a certain standard, then we must uphold that standard by acting accordingly & with the support of the UN.
I feel concern for the good men & women who are severly outnumbered in the region, especially if the Arab world do not support this.
I have to agree with adrian mole. The "west" are the agressors here, until there is tangible evidence to suggest otherwise. If we live by a certain standard, then we must uphold that standard by acting accordingly & with the support of the UN.
I feel concern for the good men & women who are severly outnumbered in the region, especially if the Arab world do not support this.
Steamchook's hawk/dove record..
Falklands - Right as hell! They invaded 'em, we made them a fair offer (UN Plebiscite of the Kelpers) and they refused.
Gulf - Yes. The 'Raq just decided to conquer the next door neighbour. That's not on, especially when full of oil.
Kosovo - Yes. Milosevic's lot were a cancer on European society and really ought to have been stopped much, much earlier. Not so sure about the conduct of the war.
Afghanistan - Clearly. The power base of the enemy (their strategic centre of gravity) was there, so pretty obvious to smash it and nail as many of them as possible. And disposing of the Taliban wasn't a bad fringe benefit. Concerned about the reconstruction/development/political campaign running down, though.
Gulf War II: The Mother-in-Law of all Battles. Wrong, wrong, wrong, economically, politically, morally and strategically.
Gulf - Yes. The 'Raq just decided to conquer the next door neighbour. That's not on, especially when full of oil.
Kosovo - Yes. Milosevic's lot were a cancer on European society and really ought to have been stopped much, much earlier. Not so sure about the conduct of the war.
Afghanistan - Clearly. The power base of the enemy (their strategic centre of gravity) was there, so pretty obvious to smash it and nail as many of them as possible. And disposing of the Taliban wasn't a bad fringe benefit. Concerned about the reconstruction/development/political campaign running down, though.
Gulf War II: The Mother-in-Law of all Battles. Wrong, wrong, wrong, economically, politically, morally and strategically.
Short sightedness
I vote for going....we have unfinished business from before. The Gulf War ended with a truce and thus is officially still underway. Bluntly speaking, I see this as a continuation of that war which so many of you feel was right and proper. We left Korea unfinished and see what a mess we have today.
There comes a time when the uniformed mafia has to earn its pay and this is one of them. I cannot understand the shortsightedness of those who cannot see the need to remove one of the major dangers to peace in the Middle East. Iraq's neighbors want Saddam gone, it is in our national interests to see him gone, and if we were willing to go to Yugoslavia because of the Human Rights issues.....then why are the nay sayers willing to ignore the evil conduct of the Saddam bunch?
As to the smoking gun issue....if I know you to have a gun....hear the gunshot....and see the bleeding corpse on the ground.....why is it on me to prove to the whole world that you have hidden the gun in your house? Even in the UK, the cops will get a search warrant and kick in the door if need be to find that gun.
As to feeling like an Agressor....get real....wake up and smell the coffee! Until the Arab parts of the world enjoy democratic freedom and economic prosperity we will continue to be attacked by their disenchanted who have been taught it is the Western World's fault for their situation when it is actually the policies and actions of their own inept dictatorial governments.
Lastly, as long as you are in uniform, when given an order, pack your kit, clean your weapon, sharpen your bayonet, and do your duty. Your leaders did not ask for your opinion nor do they want to hear any dissent nor is it proper. As an officer you have a responsibility to lead. I suggest you do so or get the hell out of the military service and join the civvie world where you can unionize and fight management all you want.
Now is the time to trust your leaders and perform your duty in a manner that honors those that fought before you and sets an example for those that will fight in the future. To do anything else dishonors your service and your personal obligation to your country.
I was wounded in combat with an armed enemy and know firsthand the ugly reality of war. I also believe failing to stand up when needed is a far more ugly thing than war. World War II should have taught us all that lesson. Do we want to wait until the Iraqi military has nuclear weapons and substantial means of deploying other WMD's against our troops or hit them before they are fully equipped to do catastrophic damage to our forces?
There comes a time when the uniformed mafia has to earn its pay and this is one of them. I cannot understand the shortsightedness of those who cannot see the need to remove one of the major dangers to peace in the Middle East. Iraq's neighbors want Saddam gone, it is in our national interests to see him gone, and if we were willing to go to Yugoslavia because of the Human Rights issues.....then why are the nay sayers willing to ignore the evil conduct of the Saddam bunch?
As to the smoking gun issue....if I know you to have a gun....hear the gunshot....and see the bleeding corpse on the ground.....why is it on me to prove to the whole world that you have hidden the gun in your house? Even in the UK, the cops will get a search warrant and kick in the door if need be to find that gun.
As to feeling like an Agressor....get real....wake up and smell the coffee! Until the Arab parts of the world enjoy democratic freedom and economic prosperity we will continue to be attacked by their disenchanted who have been taught it is the Western World's fault for their situation when it is actually the policies and actions of their own inept dictatorial governments.
Lastly, as long as you are in uniform, when given an order, pack your kit, clean your weapon, sharpen your bayonet, and do your duty. Your leaders did not ask for your opinion nor do they want to hear any dissent nor is it proper. As an officer you have a responsibility to lead. I suggest you do so or get the hell out of the military service and join the civvie world where you can unionize and fight management all you want.
Now is the time to trust your leaders and perform your duty in a manner that honors those that fought before you and sets an example for those that will fight in the future. To do anything else dishonors your service and your personal obligation to your country.
I was wounded in combat with an armed enemy and know firsthand the ugly reality of war. I also believe failing to stand up when needed is a far more ugly thing than war. World War II should have taught us all that lesson. Do we want to wait until the Iraqi military has nuclear weapons and substantial means of deploying other WMD's against our troops or hit them before they are fully equipped to do catastrophic damage to our forces?
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So SASLess what do you advocate; by the sounds of your post I think you would like to:
Attack the rest of the arab world.
Attack North Korea
How about China too
or Russia for its conduct in Chechnya or Israel for still occupying parts of Palestine contary to UN resolutions.
I don't trust my political leaders, and certainly not the current incumbent in the Whitehouse. When we are told to go I will, and do my job! But it will not be hooping and hollahing.
Attack the rest of the arab world.
Attack North Korea
How about China too
or Russia for its conduct in Chechnya or Israel for still occupying parts of Palestine contary to UN resolutions.
I don't trust my political leaders, and certainly not the current incumbent in the Whitehouse. When we are told to go I will, and do my job! But it will not be hooping and hollahing.
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Xcuse me for poking my nose into a place where it has no business, but come off it SASless, I thought the donation of a brain to medical science was only meant to happen post-mortem!
Oops, almost forgot the precedent set by a certain President, silly me!
Rgds (Esp. to all 'Eastbound traffic')
T3
Oops, almost forgot the precedent set by a certain President, silly me!
Rgds (Esp. to all 'Eastbound traffic')
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SASless, that is exactly the kind of simple one dimensional world view promoted by the USA administration, and clearly supported by you, that has the rest of the world including Europe jumping up and down in apoplectic fear and anger.
I could easily address each of the factors you use to reason in support of an attack on Iraq but I won't insult everyone's intelligence and their ability to apply it to a basic history, sociology and politics. We can all work out the arguments against an attack on Iraq in a trice.
In the big scheme of real WORLD events, by which I mean those impacting the largest number of people who are most geographically dispersed and representing the broad range of human experience, most of it pretty miserable, the biggest menace on the street today is not Iraq but the one you're all too ready to defend which I suspect is not the one you think you're about to defend. It's not American blood, not really, and it certainly isn't American soil, although some of your administration would certainly like Iraq to become dependent on the US so it might as well be American soil. No, we're about to blow to smithereens thousands of men, women and children to maintain US hegemony over the world. The US has the military and economic power to control the world and thereby continue to plunder its wealth at everyone elses cost, and it is going to maintain that position at any cost regardless of any sense of morality. Iraq is about controlling the Middle East and therefore controlling its oil. At least that's what MOST PEOPLE think and they can't all be completely wrong.
I could easily address each of the factors you use to reason in support of an attack on Iraq but I won't insult everyone's intelligence and their ability to apply it to a basic history, sociology and politics. We can all work out the arguments against an attack on Iraq in a trice.
In the big scheme of real WORLD events, by which I mean those impacting the largest number of people who are most geographically dispersed and representing the broad range of human experience, most of it pretty miserable, the biggest menace on the street today is not Iraq but the one you're all too ready to defend which I suspect is not the one you think you're about to defend. It's not American blood, not really, and it certainly isn't American soil, although some of your administration would certainly like Iraq to become dependent on the US so it might as well be American soil. No, we're about to blow to smithereens thousands of men, women and children to maintain US hegemony over the world. The US has the military and economic power to control the world and thereby continue to plunder its wealth at everyone elses cost, and it is going to maintain that position at any cost regardless of any sense of morality. Iraq is about controlling the Middle East and therefore controlling its oil. At least that's what MOST PEOPLE think and they can't all be completely wrong.
Escapee....
The rest of the Arab world does not pose the threat that Iraq's current regime does....and more of them are aligned with us in this than are publically admitting. Korea is merely using this opportunity to tweak our nose.....they will self-destruct through their own incompetence before we have to deal with them through force of arms. Those who fail to see the need for political change within the Arab countries need to read the UN Report that was done recently which points out the root causes for the disenchantment of the young people.....their antagonism is directed towards those of us in the Western Societies by their leaders who wish to point the finger of blame anywhere but where it should be pointed...at them. A study of economic factors alone indicts the Arab world's refusal to join the modern world.
Simple issues like a 25% unemployment rate within Saudi Arabia.....despite 65%of the workers in the country being foreign nationals begs the question of why there is any statistically significant unemployment at all in Saudi. The simplistic answer would be to determine what jobs could be filled by indigenous persons and then give that number of foreigners the boot. The Uk does something similar by requireing "work permits" for non-British persons.
What are you going to do....when the US lays out enough intelligence data to confirm the "smoking gun" as it is called? Will you become like a born again Christian and jump onto the bandwagon waving banners and proclaiming your complete dedication to the elimination of evil?
You can flap your gums....but when you apply a reality test to the situation....I dare say your leaders understand the need for Western action in the Middle East better than you do. Politicians seldom take such unpopular stands without good reason. I do not for an instant believe Tony Blair is so naive as to think he can survive this if all of the reasons we are giving are trumped up and bogus. George Bush may not be the most articulate of speakers....but his character is unimpeachable.
The world political situation is constantly changing....the Cold War is over...France, Germany, and to a certain degree, the UK do not have to rely upon the USA for their defense thus they can feel more independent. That is the reason they are taking the stand they are....but in time they will be there, at least the French will. We kicked the backbone out of the Germans the last time and they have not recovered yet so it is no surprise they are timid about getting into a punch up.
We will resolve the Iraq issue....then we will attend to Korea....and at some time we will find a way to promote peace in Israel and Palestine. But each time, we will always look to our own national interests in doing so....even if that "alienates" our allies. The French realize they need the oil from Iraq...and I am sure your government does as well. After all , it was the British Government that drew up the national borders of Iraq.....probably used the blueprints from Northern Ireland for the design from the results of it.
The rest of the Arab world does not pose the threat that Iraq's current regime does....and more of them are aligned with us in this than are publically admitting. Korea is merely using this opportunity to tweak our nose.....they will self-destruct through their own incompetence before we have to deal with them through force of arms. Those who fail to see the need for political change within the Arab countries need to read the UN Report that was done recently which points out the root causes for the disenchantment of the young people.....their antagonism is directed towards those of us in the Western Societies by their leaders who wish to point the finger of blame anywhere but where it should be pointed...at them. A study of economic factors alone indicts the Arab world's refusal to join the modern world.
Simple issues like a 25% unemployment rate within Saudi Arabia.....despite 65%of the workers in the country being foreign nationals begs the question of why there is any statistically significant unemployment at all in Saudi. The simplistic answer would be to determine what jobs could be filled by indigenous persons and then give that number of foreigners the boot. The Uk does something similar by requireing "work permits" for non-British persons.
What are you going to do....when the US lays out enough intelligence data to confirm the "smoking gun" as it is called? Will you become like a born again Christian and jump onto the bandwagon waving banners and proclaiming your complete dedication to the elimination of evil?
You can flap your gums....but when you apply a reality test to the situation....I dare say your leaders understand the need for Western action in the Middle East better than you do. Politicians seldom take such unpopular stands without good reason. I do not for an instant believe Tony Blair is so naive as to think he can survive this if all of the reasons we are giving are trumped up and bogus. George Bush may not be the most articulate of speakers....but his character is unimpeachable.
The world political situation is constantly changing....the Cold War is over...France, Germany, and to a certain degree, the UK do not have to rely upon the USA for their defense thus they can feel more independent. That is the reason they are taking the stand they are....but in time they will be there, at least the French will. We kicked the backbone out of the Germans the last time and they have not recovered yet so it is no surprise they are timid about getting into a punch up.
We will resolve the Iraq issue....then we will attend to Korea....and at some time we will find a way to promote peace in Israel and Palestine. But each time, we will always look to our own national interests in doing so....even if that "alienates" our allies. The French realize they need the oil from Iraq...and I am sure your government does as well. After all , it was the British Government that drew up the national borders of Iraq.....probably used the blueprints from Northern Ireland for the design from the results of it.
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Hmm, all these European voices of appeasement and anti-Americanism reminded someone of an earlier time:
"He finds today's Europe "amazingly" similar to that of the 1920s in other ways too: "its love of self-determination and loathing of imperialism and war, its liberal Germany, shrunken Russia and map of Europe crammed with small states, with America's indifference to Europe and Europe's disdain for America, with Europe's casual, endemic anti-Semitism, her politically, financially and masochistically rewarding fascination with Muslim states who despise her and her undertone of self-hatred and guilt."
Gelernter proposes that 1920s-style self-hatred is now "a dominant force in Europe." And appeasement fits this mood perfectly, having grown over the decades into a worldview "that teaches the blood-guilt of Western man, the moral bankruptcy of the West and the outrageousness of Western civilization's attempting to impose its values on anyone else." "
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...1/659rpqyj.asp
"He finds today's Europe "amazingly" similar to that of the 1920s in other ways too: "its love of self-determination and loathing of imperialism and war, its liberal Germany, shrunken Russia and map of Europe crammed with small states, with America's indifference to Europe and Europe's disdain for America, with Europe's casual, endemic anti-Semitism, her politically, financially and masochistically rewarding fascination with Muslim states who despise her and her undertone of self-hatred and guilt."
Gelernter proposes that 1920s-style self-hatred is now "a dominant force in Europe." And appeasement fits this mood perfectly, having grown over the decades into a worldview "that teaches the blood-guilt of Western man, the moral bankruptcy of the West and the outrageousness of Western civilization's attempting to impose its values on anyone else." "
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conten...1/659rpqyj.asp