Hornets And AMRAAM
EF Brief - already had the pleasure(?)
Sorry Jacko, but the fact is most (if not all) RAAF fast jet operators have had the BAe Typhoon brief. I also managed to have a fair old chat to an EF test pilot/engineer team (RAF, not company) in Oz in 2000. Neither myself nor any of my peers at the brief were particularly enamoured with the stats the sales team pitched at us. It simply doesn't offer that "next step" that the RAAF must take. I can only assume that the data they were providing us was correct, but the 'little things' kept stacking up: eg: "does the PIRATE offer LRF for weapon solutions?" Answer: "No, that capability was delayed/withheld until further development..." It might surprise you to know that I am well aware that the gun is back in EF, but the mere fact it was at one point slated for removal is mind-boggling and does not exactly give us much faith in the 'design by committee' approach.
Bear in mind that this 'disinterest' or 'lack of enthusiasm' in EF is in the context of a RAAF capability upgrade - again, I will state that in isolation the aircraft is impressive. However, it would be far easier & more cost effective to simply buy Super Hornets (not that this an option, far from it - my point being it's a less capable but a FAR safer/cheaper option).
No siree, the RAAF's going to get funky and go for an unproven type (like the EF) but with a much LARGER safety net than the EF consortium can offer. The fact that no RAAF knucks have flown the EF speaks volumes for the EF sales approach - don't you think they would welcome the chance?? Additionally, the remark about no RAAF knucks being involved in the JOUST/sim tests is correct - no self respecting Fighter Combat Instructor (RAF equivalent = FWI) would make a detailed review of a type based on a simulation... only an extensive DACT package would satisfy these guys. What they don't know about air combat isn't worth knowing and it sure as hell wasn't learnt in a sim. Irrespective of what you think, these guys have the runs on the board and they don't want the EF as part of their opening eleven (last reference to cricket, I promise!!!
)
Gnadenburg, I agree with the F15E option... I think the JSF will see it's own share of problems (as we are already seeing with the EF). Personally, I hate the thought of buying 'A-models'... I'm a firm believer in tried and proven. If I had my way (and I won't, I'm just one of these operators that sales teams could care less about) it would be mud-hens for all. NO unproven technology, excellent track record and a wealth of praise from the many RAAFies who have had the pleasure of an exchange on them (both Pig & hornet operators). They might be expensive, but at least the cost & CAPABILITY is known up front - no surprises... What does the future hold? Certainly there will be an interim replacement before JSF arrives, I only hope that saner heads prevail.
Bear in mind that this 'disinterest' or 'lack of enthusiasm' in EF is in the context of a RAAF capability upgrade - again, I will state that in isolation the aircraft is impressive. However, it would be far easier & more cost effective to simply buy Super Hornets (not that this an option, far from it - my point being it's a less capable but a FAR safer/cheaper option).
No siree, the RAAF's going to get funky and go for an unproven type (like the EF) but with a much LARGER safety net than the EF consortium can offer. The fact that no RAAF knucks have flown the EF speaks volumes for the EF sales approach - don't you think they would welcome the chance?? Additionally, the remark about no RAAF knucks being involved in the JOUST/sim tests is correct - no self respecting Fighter Combat Instructor (RAF equivalent = FWI) would make a detailed review of a type based on a simulation... only an extensive DACT package would satisfy these guys. What they don't know about air combat isn't worth knowing and it sure as hell wasn't learnt in a sim. Irrespective of what you think, these guys have the runs on the board and they don't want the EF as part of their opening eleven (last reference to cricket, I promise!!!
)Gnadenburg, I agree with the F15E option... I think the JSF will see it's own share of problems (as we are already seeing with the EF). Personally, I hate the thought of buying 'A-models'... I'm a firm believer in tried and proven. If I had my way (and I won't, I'm just one of these operators that sales teams could care less about) it would be mud-hens for all. NO unproven technology, excellent track record and a wealth of praise from the many RAAFies who have had the pleasure of an exchange on them (both Pig & hornet operators). They might be expensive, but at least the cost & CAPABILITY is known up front - no surprises... What does the future hold? Certainly there will be an interim replacement before JSF arrives, I only hope that saner heads prevail.
Thread Starter
Booger
Mud Hens a splendid interim, though like the Phantoms be hard to give up!
24-30 Strike Eagles, scrap the F111s and one squadron of Hornets. All is well until JSFs arrival.
Malaysian Flankers will create a nice little arms race down here.
Jacko
May have to work on the Singaporians with EFA. And you reckon we are Pommie bashers? At least we do it to your face!
Mud Hens a splendid interim, though like the Phantoms be hard to give up!
24-30 Strike Eagles, scrap the F111s and one squadron of Hornets. All is well until JSFs arrival.
Malaysian Flankers will create a nice little arms race down here.
Jacko
May have to work on the Singaporians with EFA. And you reckon we are Pommie bashers? At least we do it to your face!
Booger,
The removal of the gun from the EF was nothing to do with the design or the design team, and everything to do with customer stupidity (and then only one customer). Just as German cost-saving attempts were never allowed to compromise the DASS for other users, RAF attempts to save money on the gun were never likely to have any affect AT ALL on the aircraft for other operators. To suggest that this somehow reflected a 'design by committee approach' is either misguided or mischievous.
If EF doesn't offer this 'next step' that you need then the only thing that could is F-22. JSF certainly won't except in the narrow LO PGM delivery role. JSF will give an F-16/Gripen level of capability, EF will give an F-22/F-15 level of capability. To compare the two aircraft is foolhardy.
I'm fairly sure that RAAF guys have flown the EF rig, and have seen the intuitive MMI and displays in action, and will have had the opportunity (like me) to see how DVI allows complex target sorting and allocation in a multi-bogey engagement to be achieved simply and successfully. This so impressed the F-22 cockpit committee that they bought the technology for their own aircraft, remember! Nevertheless, the fact that GmbH didn't see fit to despatch an aircraft down under to give the guys a closer look speaks volumes for the lack of competence of the marketeers. (Until people have seen someone like John Turner fly HAVV rolls in a prototype Typhoon with a fairly early incarnation of the FCS software, people actually believe the nonsense which LockMart's tame journos have spouted about the aircraft's agility. RAAF pilots should have been given the opportunity to witness this, and indeed to fly the aircraft, in my view).
I'm astonished that anyone answered any question pertaining to Pirate with anything approaching realism. In its initial incarnation, I'm certain that it will be no better than modest, but I'm equally sure that Northrop Grumman's conformal array IR sensor will take much longer to develop to the same level of capability and may never reach maturity. You may be aware of how the distributed sensors have already come under threat as par of the rigorous cost-cutting which is intended to keep JSF's unit cost down.
Gnad,
"Can EFA offer a decent strike capacity?". It has 13 stores stations. It can carry an overload of nearly 18,000-lb (8,000-kg) of stores, or a normal max of 14,330-lb (6,500-kg). It has an internal 27-mm cannon (not 20-mm). It can carry four BVR AAMs, two IR-h AAMs, external fuel and either two CASOM, four Penguin, six ARMs or 18 Brimstone. Or in the air to air role six BVR AAMs and four IR homing. And it's cheaper than an F-15E and much more capable in the air-to-air role.
EF and JSF, EF and Gripen, EF and F-16, EF and F/A-18E would all make good force mixes for the RAAF. EF and F-15E might be even better.
But if its JSF alone then you'll always rely on allies for AD, escort and air superiority, and you'd best order the AWACS, JSTARS, U-2Ss, F-22s and dedicated SEAD now.
The removal of the gun from the EF was nothing to do with the design or the design team, and everything to do with customer stupidity (and then only one customer). Just as German cost-saving attempts were never allowed to compromise the DASS for other users, RAF attempts to save money on the gun were never likely to have any affect AT ALL on the aircraft for other operators. To suggest that this somehow reflected a 'design by committee approach' is either misguided or mischievous.
If EF doesn't offer this 'next step' that you need then the only thing that could is F-22. JSF certainly won't except in the narrow LO PGM delivery role. JSF will give an F-16/Gripen level of capability, EF will give an F-22/F-15 level of capability. To compare the two aircraft is foolhardy.
I'm fairly sure that RAAF guys have flown the EF rig, and have seen the intuitive MMI and displays in action, and will have had the opportunity (like me) to see how DVI allows complex target sorting and allocation in a multi-bogey engagement to be achieved simply and successfully. This so impressed the F-22 cockpit committee that they bought the technology for their own aircraft, remember! Nevertheless, the fact that GmbH didn't see fit to despatch an aircraft down under to give the guys a closer look speaks volumes for the lack of competence of the marketeers. (Until people have seen someone like John Turner fly HAVV rolls in a prototype Typhoon with a fairly early incarnation of the FCS software, people actually believe the nonsense which LockMart's tame journos have spouted about the aircraft's agility. RAAF pilots should have been given the opportunity to witness this, and indeed to fly the aircraft, in my view).
I'm astonished that anyone answered any question pertaining to Pirate with anything approaching realism. In its initial incarnation, I'm certain that it will be no better than modest, but I'm equally sure that Northrop Grumman's conformal array IR sensor will take much longer to develop to the same level of capability and may never reach maturity. You may be aware of how the distributed sensors have already come under threat as par of the rigorous cost-cutting which is intended to keep JSF's unit cost down.
Gnad,
"Can EFA offer a decent strike capacity?". It has 13 stores stations. It can carry an overload of nearly 18,000-lb (8,000-kg) of stores, or a normal max of 14,330-lb (6,500-kg). It has an internal 27-mm cannon (not 20-mm). It can carry four BVR AAMs, two IR-h AAMs, external fuel and either two CASOM, four Penguin, six ARMs or 18 Brimstone. Or in the air to air role six BVR AAMs and four IR homing. And it's cheaper than an F-15E and much more capable in the air-to-air role.
EF and JSF, EF and Gripen, EF and F-16, EF and F/A-18E would all make good force mixes for the RAAF. EF and F-15E might be even better.
But if its JSF alone then you'll always rely on allies for AD, escort and air superiority, and you'd best order the AWACS, JSTARS, U-2Ss, F-22s and dedicated SEAD now.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Jacko
You can take a
horse to water -----------
Don't be too harsh on the marketeers: they were let down by their blinkered masters - both in Goverment and Industry. It was (and remains) a stunning error that no allowance was built into the development programme (in terms of time & cost) to take the aircraft to distant potential customers from the outset. No vision I'm afraid. And as for DESO!!
You can take a
horse to water -----------
Don't be too harsh on the marketeers: they were let down by their blinkered masters - both in Goverment and Industry. It was (and remains) a stunning error that no allowance was built into the development programme (in terms of time & cost) to take the aircraft to distant potential customers from the outset. No vision I'm afraid. And as for DESO!!
Thread Starter
Defence Minister announced today there will be no interim fighter prior JSF introduction in 2012.
My prediction : F111 will be retired well before 2012, JSF will be delayed but the politicians will accept the loss of capability, declaring F-18s and new tankers a sufficient strike capability.
Yanks should demand and assist us in maintaining a comprehensive strike force ie F15E. Despite our close alignment they rarely compromise the dollar!
Smartman
Enjoy your posts. You mentioned Wolf Blass. Reliable, over ripe and over oaked Aussie export wine- bottled sunshine the Poms refer it to. Would be happy to offer assistance with more suitable recommendations.
My prediction : F111 will be retired well before 2012, JSF will be delayed but the politicians will accept the loss of capability, declaring F-18s and new tankers a sufficient strike capability.
Yanks should demand and assist us in maintaining a comprehensive strike force ie F15E. Despite our close alignment they rarely compromise the dollar!
Smartman
Enjoy your posts. You mentioned Wolf Blass. Reliable, over ripe and over oaked Aussie export wine- bottled sunshine the Poms refer it to. Would be happy to offer assistance with more suitable recommendations.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gnadenburg
Pollies are the same the world over. Why should Minister Hill hint at any need for an interim so long as the Pig still flies - such a decision requires a jam tomorrow outlook, and that's not part of the pollie mindset. Wonder what advice the new DefSec and Chief Scientist are giving? And what's Paul Dibbs's view?
Trouble is that F15E (good choice) and F18E (less so) are unlikely to be available at relatively short notice in procurement terms - but then who knows -----------
Our man Blair is presently doing a similar tap-dancing routine over Typhoon. When pushed to give an answer to 'is the Government still committed to the planned purchase of 230-odd aircraft', his reply is always 'the Gov remains fully committed to its Typhoon obligations'. Which, in legal terms, means that all that the Gov is signed up for at present is a contract for Tranche 1 aircraft, and that further purchases could be well-trimmed - but then who knows ----------
The whole world seems to be going JSF mad. Oh to be a Lockheed marketeer - but then you'd have to be a real dedicated fan. So I guess there isn't a long queue of volunteers then.
Would you ever believe the new-car salespitch that went - "look, bung us a wadge up front, say around the projected value of one car, and I'll promise you the best thing since sliced bread in around 10-yearsish time. What - a courtesy car and a trade-in price as well - you're joking! And yes I know you're a loyal customer and we have a nice ongoin' agreement, but we've others in the same boat who came along before you - so you're a bit down our delivery schedule I'm afraid. We'll do our best though".
I fancy you'd get a considerably better all-round deal from SAAB/BAES. But, hey, I'se not going there again. Still, just think of that short notice production availability when the Germans and Italians scale down their intended buys(on cost grounds Booger!!)
Better get in there before the Saudis.
Talk to me about juice instead -------------
Pollies are the same the world over. Why should Minister Hill hint at any need for an interim so long as the Pig still flies - such a decision requires a jam tomorrow outlook, and that's not part of the pollie mindset. Wonder what advice the new DefSec and Chief Scientist are giving? And what's Paul Dibbs's view?
Trouble is that F15E (good choice) and F18E (less so) are unlikely to be available at relatively short notice in procurement terms - but then who knows -----------
Our man Blair is presently doing a similar tap-dancing routine over Typhoon. When pushed to give an answer to 'is the Government still committed to the planned purchase of 230-odd aircraft', his reply is always 'the Gov remains fully committed to its Typhoon obligations'. Which, in legal terms, means that all that the Gov is signed up for at present is a contract for Tranche 1 aircraft, and that further purchases could be well-trimmed - but then who knows ----------
The whole world seems to be going JSF mad. Oh to be a Lockheed marketeer - but then you'd have to be a real dedicated fan. So I guess there isn't a long queue of volunteers then.
Would you ever believe the new-car salespitch that went - "look, bung us a wadge up front, say around the projected value of one car, and I'll promise you the best thing since sliced bread in around 10-yearsish time. What - a courtesy car and a trade-in price as well - you're joking! And yes I know you're a loyal customer and we have a nice ongoin' agreement, but we've others in the same boat who came along before you - so you're a bit down our delivery schedule I'm afraid. We'll do our best though".
I fancy you'd get a considerably better all-round deal from SAAB/BAES. But, hey, I'se not going there again. Still, just think of that short notice production availability when the Germans and Italians scale down their intended buys(on cost grounds Booger!!)
Better get in there before the Saudis.
Talk to me about juice instead -------------
