anthrax
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anthrax
Lets just say a friend of mine(lets just call him Bob), gets offered a free anthrax jab out of the blue. If Bob were, lets say deployable aircrew, refused the jab, then got sent sausage side and died as aresult of anthrax poisoning - would Bobs relatives have a case against the govt? For say, sending him into battle without making it compulsary to have said vaccination. If he takes the jab and dies before he goes sausage side (of some virus bought on as a result of said jab) what are the consequences for the muppet who decided this is purely a voluntary precaution for aircrew. P.S. This is a purely hypothetical question which in no way reflects the reality faced by certain aircrew at a certain military base.
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Novel angle "Bob"; most people whinge about compulsory jabs! You will have a pretty good idea whether or not you might need such a jab in the near future. Either way it's something for free - and that usually hits the mark. Just don't have it just before planning to use both arms for anything! Get in there before the rush starts bahhhhhhhhh
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My Q is. Why is it voluntary(as opposed to most, it not all jabs, being compulsary for deployed aircrew)? What do the quacks have to hide? If there is a mystique please explain, and I'm sure Bob will make up his mind for himself!
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This thread from another perhaps nepotistic bulletin board might shed further light or at least informed opinion.
http://www.arsse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1...num=1033504725
Thank you my ARRSe...
http://www.arsse.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb1...num=1033504725
Thank you my ARRSe...
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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HIGH SPIRITS
You are incorrect; the routine jabs offered to ALL personnel in the RAF are purely voluntary. You can refuse any and all if you choose to, although the company would like you to think differently. The only requirement is that you must sign a waiver to that effect and have your med docs annotated accordingly. I know this because I have been down that particular path.
Here is my tip for the forthcoming farce. Remember that a lot of the drugs etc you will be offered are unlicensed for use on humans. When you start having health problems using NAPS etc(Like a lot us did the first time round) you will not be compensated. In addition any written orders to take said substances will mysteriously disappear!!
As regards the Anthrax jab, every one has to make their own decision using the best information available. It's a personal thing man!!
You are incorrect; the routine jabs offered to ALL personnel in the RAF are purely voluntary. You can refuse any and all if you choose to, although the company would like you to think differently. The only requirement is that you must sign a waiver to that effect and have your med docs annotated accordingly. I know this because I have been down that particular path.
Here is my tip for the forthcoming farce. Remember that a lot of the drugs etc you will be offered are unlicensed for use on humans. When you start having health problems using NAPS etc(Like a lot us did the first time round) you will not be compensated. In addition any written orders to take said substances will mysteriously disappear!!
As regards the Anthrax jab, every one has to make their own decision using the best information available. It's a personal thing man!!
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Hypothetically, Bob, what do you consider your own Self Damage Line if you have to bomb an anthrax factory/biological weapons production facility.
I think I'd rather like the protection offered, but you have to make your own risk assessment based on your best guess of what you think may happen.
I had the jabs during the last major dust up in that hypothetical deployment area, but opted out during later deployments when taking photos/images was more in vogue.
At the moment with GWs attitude and the politicing going on, I think I'd take this shot. You'd really regret it if....
Good luck mate, sorry, Bob.
Fly safe
I think I'd rather like the protection offered, but you have to make your own risk assessment based on your best guess of what you think may happen.
I had the jabs during the last major dust up in that hypothetical deployment area, but opted out during later deployments when taking photos/images was more in vogue.
At the moment with GWs attitude and the politicing going on, I think I'd take this shot. You'd really regret it if....
Good luck mate, sorry, Bob.
Fly safe
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Gorilla,
Thanks for the info. Bob previously believed all theatre specific jabs were compulsary, he stands corrected. As it is voluntary, I wonder if the MOD are going to make Bob sign that he is a volunteer. That way when he or his family attempt to get the lawyers involved, the MOD plucks out the hapless Bobs signature. It's intresting to know that most of the jabs that Bob will have will not necessarily have been properly tested. It just sounds like the MOD trying to prevent George W Bush syndrome(as opposed to George Bush syndrome).
Thanks for the info. Bob previously believed all theatre specific jabs were compulsary, he stands corrected. As it is voluntary, I wonder if the MOD are going to make Bob sign that he is a volunteer. That way when he or his family attempt to get the lawyers involved, the MOD plucks out the hapless Bobs signature. It's intresting to know that most of the jabs that Bob will have will not necessarily have been properly tested. It just sounds like the MOD trying to prevent George W Bush syndrome(as opposed to George Bush syndrome).
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Bob would have to sign a consent form for any jab administered by a medical professional in the UK. To not do so would enable him to claim assault. Bob does not have to sign for pills and potions as he administers them to himself and consents by opening his mouth. The anthrax jab is voluntary, probably because Bob whinged so much about being offered it. Slaughterhouse workers and American forces have had it for years. So it hurts a bit, so a small percentage of the population may get side effects - some people can't take aspirin. Anthrax appears to be generally curable by antibiotics after infection if Bob's too chicken to get a little jab...
Can't see that there's any hidden agenda.
Can't see that there's any hidden agenda.
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I'm not Military but do you people recall the talk about the UK stockpiling Smallpox vaccine post 11th Sep ?
I understood that it was brought into the UK by the Government as a precaution against biological attack.
Some time later it was determined that the stockpiled vaccine was either incorrect, the wrong type, ineffective against the strains of Smallpox likely to be used in a chemical attack.
So where is this vaccine that may be used for mass vacination being sourced from ?
Just a comment but would appreciate views from those more in the know that I am.
I understood that it was brought into the UK by the Government as a precaution against biological attack.
Some time later it was determined that the stockpiled vaccine was either incorrect, the wrong type, ineffective against the strains of Smallpox likely to be used in a chemical attack.
So where is this vaccine that may be used for mass vacination being sourced from ?
Just a comment but would appreciate views from those more in the know that I am.
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An interesting thread, and it is correct that all jabs are 'voluntary'. However, what happens if you have refused, say, yellow fever and you are tasked to fly to a country where the jab is required as a condition of entry? How is the military going to handle that situation, and what will the effect be on the individual's posting/career?
co-incidence?
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Diff-i-dent,
Having spoken to Bob, he might be slightly more towards the front line than your secret oxfordshire airbase. He is not a 'chicken' as far as jabs go, rather he is slightly more concerned that the MOD might have attempted to cover up George Bush Syndrome in the past, and therefore might seek to cover up George W Bush Syndrome(were it to happen) in future. Maybe he will have to bite the bullet and take the jab - but suggesting he's a chicken is just a little too like General Melchett. BTW he hopes your mother dies in a freak yachting accident..... Conspiracy theories aside, I hope the MOD knows what they are doing, Bob is a good mate!
Having spoken to Bob, he might be slightly more towards the front line than your secret oxfordshire airbase. He is not a 'chicken' as far as jabs go, rather he is slightly more concerned that the MOD might have attempted to cover up George Bush Syndrome in the past, and therefore might seek to cover up George W Bush Syndrome(were it to happen) in future. Maybe he will have to bite the bullet and take the jab - but suggesting he's a chicken is just a little too like General Melchett. BTW he hopes your mother dies in a freak yachting accident..... Conspiracy theories aside, I hope the MOD knows what they are doing, Bob is a good mate!
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Dissapointed
I hope the MOD knows what they are doing, Bob is a good mate!
They said it was voluntary for episode one, they just never said it to me until afterwards.
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I politely declined two particular jabs (to be given at the same sitting) during Granby (this was out in theatre) having weighed up the pro's and cons as best I could at the time (one was anthrax, forget the other). I was given a right talking to, the Wg Cdr doc was called, threats were made, my details were taken and .....er....nothing ever happened!
I remember the doc going on about disobeying an order, I should be doing what I am told, etc, etc. Yawn.
I remember the doc going on about disobeying an order, I should be doing what I am told, etc, etc. Yawn.
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My experience was the same as Chris and Vortex!!
We were ordered to have all the jabs including Anthrax, Pertusis and cutter. To this day no one has explained the last 2!! We were also ordered to take NAPS soon after things got nasty.
All paperwork relating to these orders disappeared and people (Sqn Commanders) began lying about whether or not they had issued the orders in the first place.
I can trace back to that period, the beginning of the current daily trend. The trend of lying to personnel in order to get the job done at all costs and then blaming others if it all goes wrong!!
Fact is, I was ordered to take a cocktail of drugs and inoculations against my better judgement. Then it was said I had them voluntarily, forgive me Sire if I don’t trust you this time round!!
Why would they cover it up???
We were ordered to have all the jabs including Anthrax, Pertusis and cutter. To this day no one has explained the last 2!! We were also ordered to take NAPS soon after things got nasty.
All paperwork relating to these orders disappeared and people (Sqn Commanders) began lying about whether or not they had issued the orders in the first place.
I can trace back to that period, the beginning of the current daily trend. The trend of lying to personnel in order to get the job done at all costs and then blaming others if it all goes wrong!!
Fact is, I was ordered to take a cocktail of drugs and inoculations against my better judgement. Then it was said I had them voluntarily, forgive me Sire if I don’t trust you this time round!!
Why would they cover it up???
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There is or at least was a year or so ago a QR that made ordering someone to receive medical treatment among other things a legal order. Current Human rights legislation etc probably invalidate this order but during the Gulf the order to have jabs was probably believed to be legal by those giving them albeit in a grey area. At that time there was less knowledge about an individuals rights across the board and so fewer people would contest that order.
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British law is quite clear. Any person who injects you without your consent is guilty of common assault (it has always been the case - it is just that the vast majority of us either didn't know - like me - or just followed orders). The Forces cannot order you to have a jab.
Furthermore, legally, the only people who can stick needles in you are qualified medical and paramedical personnel. We have med sec people doing it for their war training, provided you consent to it - then that circumvents any legal problems.
The current anthrax jab procedure is a briefing from a medical officer, you are given a video to watch and a 7 day period to consider your options. If you decide not to have the jab, then you can be and are ordered to sign a document that states that you have refused the injection and that you accept the consequences.
I doubt whether you would get away with a subsequent law suit.
Sorry GB2, QRs cannot override the law of the land.
Furthermore, legally, the only people who can stick needles in you are qualified medical and paramedical personnel. We have med sec people doing it for their war training, provided you consent to it - then that circumvents any legal problems.
The current anthrax jab procedure is a briefing from a medical officer, you are given a video to watch and a 7 day period to consider your options. If you decide not to have the jab, then you can be and are ordered to sign a document that states that you have refused the injection and that you accept the consequences.
I doubt whether you would get away with a subsequent law suit.
Sorry GB2, QRs cannot override the law of the land.
To be caught with their pants down once is understandable, and the lack of co-ordination, preparation and information about inoculations/jabs/naps etc coming from the Forces medical establishment during Operation Granby is perhaps explicable, if not forgiveable.
But having seen the problems, noted personnel resistance, and encountered George Senior Syndrome last time and then to have failed to sort out what would be required for future operations in advance seems like cavalier indifference or a near criminal level of negligence.
It may be (and I'm sure the official line will be) that it's all been looked into and it's all safe this time. But the lack of trust among you chaps suggests either that such reassurances are 'hoop' or that any improvements and changes haven't been adequately explained and justified.
Even on an internal PR level this seems like an own goal of scarcely credible proportions.
May I offer Bob and all his likely fellow-travellers my best wishes for any foreign trips he/they might or might not make in the near future?
But having seen the problems, noted personnel resistance, and encountered George Senior Syndrome last time and then to have failed to sort out what would be required for future operations in advance seems like cavalier indifference or a near criminal level of negligence.
It may be (and I'm sure the official line will be) that it's all been looked into and it's all safe this time. But the lack of trust among you chaps suggests either that such reassurances are 'hoop' or that any improvements and changes haven't been adequately explained and justified.
Even on an internal PR level this seems like an own goal of scarcely credible proportions.
May I offer Bob and all his likely fellow-travellers my best wishes for any foreign trips he/they might or might not make in the near future?
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It was a fact that NAPS wasn't licensed for use on humans when issued in 1991.
Does any one know if it has been tested and licensed (along with its sister drug BAPS) for use this time round??
Does any one know if it has been tested and licensed (along with its sister drug BAPS) for use this time round??
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anthrax
I wasn't even in the mob 'last time round' but a close member of the family was and he had all the various jabs et al.
I am now in and whilst not one of the winged master race am just as deployable so therefore just at risk. Having been given the 'briefing' by a snr doctor type a few days ago I think this is like anything else in life, civvy or green - 'You pays your money and you makes your choice', but I'm still not convinced by the anthrax thing
Practice selfless act of intelligence and random acts of self-control
I am now in and whilst not one of the winged master race am just as deployable so therefore just at risk. Having been given the 'briefing' by a snr doctor type a few days ago I think this is like anything else in life, civvy or green - 'You pays your money and you makes your choice', but I'm still not convinced by the anthrax thing
Practice selfless act of intelligence and random acts of self-control