Amount of Military pilots with degrees.
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Thanks for the fountain of advice!
Thanks guys for all the advice you've given, hope that I make the right choice. I think its a case of weighing up the prospect of a better career move within military service and what I want out of the job.
Regards
Tiger
Regards
Tiger
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Degrees (or something to that effect...)
HvR
Hear hear! As a USAF major, I have been busting my hump to get a master's degree in my "spare" time. Unfortunately, it is in a marketable area (information systems), so instead of using it to advance my military career, I will be using it to advance my income. I will hit my lieutenant colonel promotion board at 19 years of active duty service, if I get picked up (and it isn't hard nowadays with 85% promotion opportunity), I would wait about a year to pin it on, then have to wear it for two years to retire in that rank. However, I know damn well that during those two years the USAF will provide me an "opportunity to excel," meaning a remote assignment (possibly a command), meaning no family. To which I will respond by putting in my retirement papers anyway, as if I didn't I wouldn't have to worry about my family because I wouldn't have one any more! Therefore, with the opportunity to make some decent money, and to get away from the abortion of a personnel system the USAF has (I my boss, a lieutenant general, recommend me for a specific assignment In Germany, and the USAF sent me to Belgium. They probably think it is the same country!) means I will be "punching out" at 20 years. Hate to leave the service, it has had its ups and downs but mostly it has been a great experience; but we are getting jerked around more and more (like having to have a graduate degree), and it is getting to be too much.
Just my €.02!
Cheers!
"I suspect that my collegues are being unfair both to the US educational system and to those dedicated officers that work all day then study hard at home for many years to attain the Masters needed to advance beyond Major. "
Hear hear! As a USAF major, I have been busting my hump to get a master's degree in my "spare" time. Unfortunately, it is in a marketable area (information systems), so instead of using it to advance my military career, I will be using it to advance my income. I will hit my lieutenant colonel promotion board at 19 years of active duty service, if I get picked up (and it isn't hard nowadays with 85% promotion opportunity), I would wait about a year to pin it on, then have to wear it for two years to retire in that rank. However, I know damn well that during those two years the USAF will provide me an "opportunity to excel," meaning a remote assignment (possibly a command), meaning no family. To which I will respond by putting in my retirement papers anyway, as if I didn't I wouldn't have to worry about my family because I wouldn't have one any more! Therefore, with the opportunity to make some decent money, and to get away from the abortion of a personnel system the USAF has (I my boss, a lieutenant general, recommend me for a specific assignment In Germany, and the USAF sent me to Belgium. They probably think it is the same country!) means I will be "punching out" at 20 years. Hate to leave the service, it has had its ups and downs but mostly it has been a great experience; but we are getting jerked around more and more (like having to have a graduate degree), and it is getting to be too much.
Just my €.02!
Cheers!
"I suspect that my collegues are being unfair both to the US educational system and to those dedicated officers that work all day then study hard at home for many years to attain the Masters needed to advance beyond Major. "
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I'm a woodentop (non graduate) through and through, even to the point of admitting to attending 'that place in Bedfordshire', so please feel free to take my opinion on graduates with a pinch of salt.
As far as I am concerned though neither military or civil aviation requires a degree (I've done 11 years plus in each). The best pilots will achieve degree level knowledge, but as has already been said, this can be achieved on the job, whether formally or not. Aviation is like many other careers, where people are being pushed into doing degrees for no particular reason. In many, like nursing, it actually damages the capacity to do the basic job in hand (in the case of nurses, the job in hand is often attached to a pilot!)
The Merchant Navy had it right (when we had one), what they wanted was 5 O'levels and keen to go to sea; they provided the rest. In my own case (9 O'levels, 2.5 A'levels) I have progressed quite happily to fast jet pilot, Senior Airline Training Captain, FRAeS, and freelance Human Factors Consultant without a degree.
I'm not knocking graduates, or 3 years of deabauchary, just suggesting that the recruitment system has no need to seek a degree as a pre entry requirement.
As far as I am concerned though neither military or civil aviation requires a degree (I've done 11 years plus in each). The best pilots will achieve degree level knowledge, but as has already been said, this can be achieved on the job, whether formally or not. Aviation is like many other careers, where people are being pushed into doing degrees for no particular reason. In many, like nursing, it actually damages the capacity to do the basic job in hand (in the case of nurses, the job in hand is often attached to a pilot!)
The Merchant Navy had it right (when we had one), what they wanted was 5 O'levels and keen to go to sea; they provided the rest. In my own case (9 O'levels, 2.5 A'levels) I have progressed quite happily to fast jet pilot, Senior Airline Training Captain, FRAeS, and freelance Human Factors Consultant without a degree.
I'm not knocking graduates, or 3 years of deabauchary, just suggesting that the recruitment system has no need to seek a degree as a pre entry requirement.
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I have found that a lot of the guys/galls who go to the various military institutions to gain their degree also gain a marvelous characteristic called the 51% mentality. Most of them have been studying all their lives and are sick and tired of it. they are then face with the most challenging experience of their lives and they often cope badly.
a degree has no correlation with a high intelligence. don't waste 3 years of your life!!
a degree has no correlation with a high intelligence. don't waste 3 years of your life!!
Last edited by griffinblack; 10th Dec 2002 at 00:44.
I can say with a great degree (boom! boom!) of certainty that my military-sponsored Bachelor of Hang Gliding (okay, with a submajor in Arts) has in no way helped my subsequent military flying career. However, seven contact hours a week in third year whilst being paid wasn't too shabby! Just don't lose sight of the end game.
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Graduate degrees
Living in US, I observe that, to get anywhere, one is pressured from the get-go to attain some kind of higher education check in the box.
Criticism of Baccalaureate US degrees has some foundation, but of course there are also good schools (sidebar- a major problem with education in US is that, in the supposed interest in preserving individual State's rights/autonomy, no one will agree to a 'universal' syllabus).
Associate degrees (foundation/conversion to baccalaureate) are all the rage, and though in many cases a joke, necessary to try to move up the food chain.
As to whether degrees have applicability in the military- probably not, but that depends on current policy from the Brass. They can however be a good backstop in transition to civvy street- I speak from experience. My Bsc in Under-Water Basket Weaving got me where I wanted to be living after Endex (oafs duly impressed when I pointed out that a Brit 3 year is at least equivalent to a US 4 year BS. All the stuff about Uni being worthwhile is true. An observation : if you join up and have major career aspirations (Marshal of the RAF, Chairman Joint Chiefs), there's something wrong wit' you, though you'll probably go far in a 'peacetime' military.
Acronyms(US):
BS- Bulls**t
MS-More s**t
Phd- Piled high and deeper
Anecdote : 2 days to first year college exams, was taking rays on roof of tower block residence during last good summer in UK(1976) putatively studying Physics notes.. awoke to find, as binder was unclipped, most of pages had gone awol in breeze. Kept finding odd pages for days afterwards, scattered across campus.
Through difficulties to Asda
F.I.D.O.
Criticism of Baccalaureate US degrees has some foundation, but of course there are also good schools (sidebar- a major problem with education in US is that, in the supposed interest in preserving individual State's rights/autonomy, no one will agree to a 'universal' syllabus).
Associate degrees (foundation/conversion to baccalaureate) are all the rage, and though in many cases a joke, necessary to try to move up the food chain.
As to whether degrees have applicability in the military- probably not, but that depends on current policy from the Brass. They can however be a good backstop in transition to civvy street- I speak from experience. My Bsc in Under-Water Basket Weaving got me where I wanted to be living after Endex (oafs duly impressed when I pointed out that a Brit 3 year is at least equivalent to a US 4 year BS. All the stuff about Uni being worthwhile is true. An observation : if you join up and have major career aspirations (Marshal of the RAF, Chairman Joint Chiefs), there's something wrong wit' you, though you'll probably go far in a 'peacetime' military.
Acronyms(US):
BS- Bulls**t
MS-More s**t
Phd- Piled high and deeper
Anecdote : 2 days to first year college exams, was taking rays on roof of tower block residence during last good summer in UK(1976) putatively studying Physics notes.. awoke to find, as binder was unclipped, most of pages had gone awol in breeze. Kept finding odd pages for days afterwards, scattered across campus.
Through difficulties to Asda
F.I.D.O.
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Hi Tigerformation, I am in exactly the same position, have applied to universities, but am applying to the RAF again next year as a DE. I applied this year for the pilot scholarship (what a mess that scheme was) and was told to improve on my part 2 stuff. Hopefully they will accept me next year, I really just want to learn to fly and live life in the RAF. I know that I am the kind of person that they are looking for, as I passed the interview, and I think that it will just be better for them to accept me now instead of in three years time (with a severe deficiency in brain cells). Good luck in whatever you want to do, TMA.
Out of interest, Dukeyboy, is there a significant age difference between your graduate and non-graduate colleagues?
How times change. Back in 1973 the emphasis was on getting a degree to join the RAF and most of us were 22-23 when we started officer training. But we wore Fg Off rank and were paid as such - then became 'Green Shield' Flt Lts about a year later.
How times change. Back in 1973 the emphasis was on getting a degree to join the RAF and most of us were 22-23 when we started officer training. But we wore Fg Off rank and were paid as such - then became 'Green Shield' Flt Lts about a year later.
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I think one of the main reasons they're trying to attract pilots straight out of school these days is so they can actually get more productive service from them.
I applied to join when I was 16 and was told to apply for the bursary/cadetship scheme as that's what the RAF needed at the time apparently. After 4 years at Uni, 5 months waiting for IOT, 6 months at Cranwell, 4 months holding for BFJT, a year at Linton, another 4 month hold and now with Valley still to come, (no doubt with another bloody hold before 19Sqn!) I'm going to be at least 27 before I'm combat ready. If I get selected as a (spit!) creamie I'll be pushing 30 which only gives me 2 tours to get more bitter and cynical before I can leave with a pension!
Compare that to the guy who comes in at 18 and reaches the front line at age 21/22. I know which one makes better sense to recruit from a financial/productive viewpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time at Uni and got an extra years seniority out of it, but the RAF seem to be wanting them younger these days.
Hope this helps.
I applied to join when I was 16 and was told to apply for the bursary/cadetship scheme as that's what the RAF needed at the time apparently. After 4 years at Uni, 5 months waiting for IOT, 6 months at Cranwell, 4 months holding for BFJT, a year at Linton, another 4 month hold and now with Valley still to come, (no doubt with another bloody hold before 19Sqn!) I'm going to be at least 27 before I'm combat ready. If I get selected as a (spit!) creamie I'll be pushing 30 which only gives me 2 tours to get more bitter and cynical before I can leave with a pension!
Compare that to the guy who comes in at 18 and reaches the front line at age 21/22. I know which one makes better sense to recruit from a financial/productive viewpoint.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time at Uni and got an extra years seniority out of it, but the RAF seem to be wanting them younger these days.
Hope this helps.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As a direct entrant navigator I was on 'full receive' mode during training. The one graduate out of 100 was distinctly 'above' the rest of us. He was still odd 15 years later.
Look at the graduation lists now. About 9 out or 10 have a Science or Engineering degree often at Masters level.
Yes you get your first operational tour at 27. Me, I was on Ops at 21 and Flt Lt at 23.
Does the degree help? I think it does in the ultimate career progression but not early on. A Maths 1st was unable to add 2+2 when under pressure. 0859 plus 2 minutes became 0861!
I have almost completed my degree now and it is certainly very helpful although entirely irrelevant - humanities.
Never mind the quality, feel the width.
Look at the graduation lists now. About 9 out or 10 have a Science or Engineering degree often at Masters level.
Yes you get your first operational tour at 27. Me, I was on Ops at 21 and Flt Lt at 23.
Does the degree help? I think it does in the ultimate career progression but not early on. A Maths 1st was unable to add 2+2 when under pressure. 0859 plus 2 minutes became 0861!
I have almost completed my degree now and it is certainly very helpful although entirely irrelevant - humanities.
Never mind the quality, feel the width.
