Red Arrows - toxic culture
Toadstool,
No one would have thought the recent problems to surface about the Red Arrows to have been at all likely, until the lid came off. So as to how prevalent it is eslewhere, remains for now, unknown, or unheard of. I was thinking about the programme last night, one possible explanation for the various charges of sexual misconduct against men by women, to put it bluntly, may come down to the genuine shift toward the principle of equal opportunity and risk. Not that that is a bad thing, but it strikes me (just an observation) that young women joining up now, and this came across in the interviews, want to be regarded by their male colleagues as blokes as well, this was not quite case say 30 and more years ago. It might also explain why there are adverse reactions to any approaches from male colleagues on a more personal level. Although, I must admit, some of the transcipt messages seemed quite ominous.
FB
No one would have thought the recent problems to surface about the Red Arrows to have been at all likely, until the lid came off. So as to how prevalent it is eslewhere, remains for now, unknown, or unheard of. I was thinking about the programme last night, one possible explanation for the various charges of sexual misconduct against men by women, to put it bluntly, may come down to the genuine shift toward the principle of equal opportunity and risk. Not that that is a bad thing, but it strikes me (just an observation) that young women joining up now, and this came across in the interviews, want to be regarded by their male colleagues as blokes as well, this was not quite case say 30 and more years ago. It might also explain why there are adverse reactions to any approaches from male colleagues on a more personal level. Although, I must admit, some of the transcipt messages seemed quite ominous.
FB
Toadstool,
No one would have thought the recent problems to surface about the Red Arrows to have been at all likely, until the lid came off. So as to how prevalent it is eslewhere, remains for now, unknown, or unheard of. I was thinking about the programme last night, one possible explanation for the various charges of sexual misconduct against men by women, to put it bluntly, may come down to the genuine shift toward the principle of equal opportunity and risk. Not that that is a bad thing, but it strikes me (just an observation) that young women joining up now, and this came across in the interviews, want to be regarded by their male colleagues as blokes as well, this was not quite case say 30 and more years ago. It might also explain why there are adverse reactions to any approaches from male colleagues on a more personal level. Although, I must admit, some of the transcipt messages seemed quite ominous.
FB
No one would have thought the recent problems to surface about the Red Arrows to have been at all likely, until the lid came off. So as to how prevalent it is eslewhere, remains for now, unknown, or unheard of. I was thinking about the programme last night, one possible explanation for the various charges of sexual misconduct against men by women, to put it bluntly, may come down to the genuine shift toward the principle of equal opportunity and risk. Not that that is a bad thing, but it strikes me (just an observation) that young women joining up now, and this came across in the interviews, want to be regarded by their male colleagues as blokes as well, this was not quite case say 30 and more years ago. It might also explain why there are adverse reactions to any approaches from male colleagues on a more personal level. Although, I must admit, some of the transcipt messages seemed quite ominous.
FB
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FB
As an aside, but relevant to this thread, I was bullied very badly in my time in training, not by staff but by a fellow trainee who decided it was funny to make my life hell and ridicule me whenever he could to his audience of sycophantes. I truly wish him nothing but misery in his life. However, the RAF have a different view - the vile sprog is now an AOC, and charged with looking after trainees! You could not make it up.
He is what the RAF want. He is what they stand for. .
As an aside, but relevant to this thread, I was bullied very badly in my time in training, not by staff but by a fellow trainee who decided it was funny to make my life hell and ridicule me whenever he could to his audience of sycophantes. I truly wish him nothing but misery in his life. However, the RAF have a different view - the vile sprog is now an AOC, and charged with looking after trainees! You could not make it up.
He is what the RAF want. He is what they stand for. .
Edit: I have no idea what kind of individual he is as I have had no dealings with him.
It is fascinating that for all this talk, there are plenty of threads on here that talk about “blunties” and how the rest of the RAF exists to support the two winged master race…
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Terrible though the claims of sexual predation within RAFAT are, these weren't the only concerns raised about the Reds last night. Air Safety, or the lack of it, was also mentioned and the threat of reprisals if those concerns were not dropped immediately. Sean Cunningham and Jon Bayliss both died in airworthiness related air accidents. It transpired that the seat that killed the former, and the aircraft in which the latter died, were both unairworthy, lacking a valid Air System Safety Case. Whatever the faults at RAFAT, and they are many, the rot as ever starts at the top.
The problems at RAFAT, Air Training, and Air Cadet Gliding, are all featured in dedicated threads on this forum and all three come under the same people at MOD. Certain RAF VSOs sabotaged RAF Air Safety in the late 80s, and succeeding VSOs have since covered up that sabotage. The result is that UK Military Air Safety has been compromised ever since and overseen by a dysfunctional Air Regulator. That will continue and more military airworthiness related fatal air accidents will take their toll in blood and treasure if the cover up doesn't end.
Sean and Jon died needlessly in avoidable accidents. RAFAT must bear its responsibility for the shortcomings that allowed the final holes in the cheese but the core failure was a lack of leadership at the very top of the RAF/MOD, the same failure that enables sexual predation at the Reds and in the RAF in general (I would remind members that another thread, A Failure of Values, is also current). There is something very rotten in today's RAF.
The problems at RAFAT, Air Training, and Air Cadet Gliding, are all featured in dedicated threads on this forum and all three come under the same people at MOD. Certain RAF VSOs sabotaged RAF Air Safety in the late 80s, and succeeding VSOs have since covered up that sabotage. The result is that UK Military Air Safety has been compromised ever since and overseen by a dysfunctional Air Regulator. That will continue and more military airworthiness related fatal air accidents will take their toll in blood and treasure if the cover up doesn't end.
Sean and Jon died needlessly in avoidable accidents. RAFAT must bear its responsibility for the shortcomings that allowed the final holes in the cheese but the core failure was a lack of leadership at the very top of the RAF/MOD, the same failure that enables sexual predation at the Reds and in the RAF in general (I would remind members that another thread, A Failure of Values, is also current). There is something very rotten in today's RAF.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 29th Dec 2023 at 08:38. Reason: Allowing a pause or two to draw breath
He is. He thinks it is funny to ridicule people, and enjoys the power trip of making others feel helpless and alone. I experienced it firsthand, and it led me to severe mental health issues that ultimately killed my career, although I did not recognize it at the time, but now it is clear.
He thought it was funny to openly belittle me in front of others. I was crying inside and wanted to beg someone for help but the system simply didn't care, and so I suffered in silence.
He is now in charge of trainees for the RAF. I would ask any parent this question: Do you have a son or daughter thinking of joining the Royal Air Force? If so, you need to know that the man in charge of them bullied me mercillessly, ridiculed me in front of others, and thought it was funny.
I have no doubt at all that CAS knows all of this, but like the Reds, he will hide it, deflect, redirect and obfuscate - he will protect 'his man' and to hell with the victims.
My comment is simply this - if you are thinking of joining the RAF, don't. It is a home of bullies, predators and those who protect them. If you are are a parent, do not even consider allowing your child to apply to the RAF - they are walking into a vipers nest.
The Sky documentary opened the lid - Senior officers who ignore or hide the truth, and victims who are treated with utter contempt - all confirmed.. That is todays RAF.
Nobody should even consider applying - there are so many better avenues for your skills. The Army and Navy have pilots, and both have something the RAF don't - a conscience.
He thought it was funny to openly belittle me in front of others. I was crying inside and wanted to beg someone for help but the system simply didn't care, and so I suffered in silence.
He is now in charge of trainees for the RAF. I would ask any parent this question: Do you have a son or daughter thinking of joining the Royal Air Force? If so, you need to know that the man in charge of them bullied me mercillessly, ridiculed me in front of others, and thought it was funny.
I have no doubt at all that CAS knows all of this, but like the Reds, he will hide it, deflect, redirect and obfuscate - he will protect 'his man' and to hell with the victims.
My comment is simply this - if you are thinking of joining the RAF, don't. It is a home of bullies, predators and those who protect them. If you are are a parent, do not even consider allowing your child to apply to the RAF - they are walking into a vipers nest.
The Sky documentary opened the lid - Senior officers who ignore or hide the truth, and victims who are treated with utter contempt - all confirmed.. That is todays RAF.
Nobody should even consider applying - there are so many better avenues for your skills. The Army and Navy have pilots, and both have something the RAF don't - a conscience.
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Slander/libel/defamation have laws country dependent and I dont know the UK specifically
I was actually agreeing with you about not naming names or specific events
English defamation laws are some of the most favourable in the world to those seeking redress. Truth is a valid defence, but it has to be proven, and the burden of proof falls onto the defendant (ie the person being accused of libel or slander). It is difficult enough to prove bullying in contemporary cases; proving it at thirty years distance, with all the limitations of human recall and differences in the cultural baseline, would be even harder.
I really find this whole Red Arrows saga extremely depressing. I served from 59 to 96 (boy & man) and am amazed at how things appear to have changed since I left the Service. I to have wondered what the various Sqn Warrant Officers were doing over the years that these events took place. I do know that whilst the Arrows seem to have been admired outside of the Service family there was very little respect for them amongst those who had to host them as they came over (both Red & Blue) as self centered, egoistic and entitled individuals. During the programme on Sky it was claimed that an RAF spokesperson said "Multible investigations concluded David Montenegro's relationship had been a private life matter and no action was required". If this statement is true when were Officers and SNCO's confidential orders withdrawn or ammended to sanction such behaviour.
I hate to say this, truly I do, but there seems a case to censor/ self censor the trail leading to a senior wanquer?
getting ones rocks off feels good, but can land one in the dwang.
We dont want a good bloke martyred.
getting ones rocks off feels good, but can land one in the dwang.
We dont want a good bloke martyred.
I really find this whole Red Arrows saga extremely depressing. I served from 59 to 96 (boy & man) and am amazed at how things appear to have changed since I left the Service. I to have wondered what the various Sqn Warrant Officers were doing over the years that these events took place. I do know that whilst the Arrows seem to have been admired outside of the Service family there was very little respect for them amongst those who had to host them as they came over (both Red & Blue) as self centered, egoistic and entitled individuals. During the programme on Sky it was claimed that an RAF spokesperson said "Multible investigations concluded David Montenegro's relationship had been a private life matter and no action was required". If this statement is true when were Officers and SNCO's confidential orders withdrawn or ammended to sanction such behaviour.
Ultimately IMHO this instance fails the service test as every flying Sqn I've ever been on the (and my) CoC ends with the Wing Commander, so I fail to see how a married Wing Commander sleeping with a Cpl passes the service test. Further with the Boss setting the example of openly having an affair with a subordinate it would set the atmosphere of what behaviour is acceptable.
It seems to me that the RAF came to this conclusion because it wanted this conclusion.
Last edited by downsizer; 29th Dec 2023 at 10:21.
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The replacement was a published set of values and standards, coupled with a ‘Service test’ that hinges on whether behaviours/actions are considered to adversely impact on the operational effectiveness of the unit concerned. That is a judgement call.
The MOD has extensive policies on bullying and harassment, which includes unwanted behaviour of a sexual nature. The latter falls under a zero tolerance policy whereby non-criminal activity - ie not an assault - can lead to dismissal. Or so I am reliably informed.