Haythornthwaite Review of Armed Forces Incentivisation
However, if one's adjusted income is less that £260K and one has available pension allowance you can reduce/postpone payment, for example if one is earning £120K and can stick £20K in a pension the government would add £5K to one's pension and knock another £5K off one's tax via one's tax return.
Back to the review: I would think the 90%+ of taxpayers earning less than the example Flt Lt above would say 'go forth and multiply' to any request for more pay, given that most service personnel are ORs with less than 10 yrs IMO it's to those at the bottom any money should be allocated especially uplifting starting pay - OF-1 Step 2 and top end of OR-2/3 are already above median UK salary. However, as mentioned above the Engineering and IT specialists are also an issue - an IT contractor can easily get Grp Capt money and way over WO money.
Back to the review: I would think the 90%+ of taxpayers earning less than the example Flt Lt above would say 'go forth and multiply' to any request for more pay, given that most service personnel are ORs with less than 10 yrs IMO it's to those at the bottom any money should be allocated especially uplifting starting pay - OF-1 Step 2 and top end of OR-2/3 are already above median UK salary. However, as mentioned above the Engineering and IT specialists are also an issue - an IT contractor can easily get Grp Capt money and way over WO money.
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"If you work for the RAF or the airlines or a defence contractor, we all pay the same tax in the UK. The only way to beat that is to move abroad, live in a compound in the middle-east, and save up some tax free cash!"
Any bets that the next Govt will extend income tax to worldwide income as in the USA and Oztralia??
Any bets that the next Govt will extend income tax to worldwide income as in the USA and Oztralia??
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...-harvey-smyth/
RAF accused of self-harm by setting pilots 'mind-numbingly tedious tasks'
The RAF’s levels of bureaucracy are “extreme” self-harm, a senior Air Marshal has said.
Air and Space Commander Harvey Smyth said the RAF was experiencing serious problems with retention, with particular focus on military personnel who have served between 10 and 15 years and may be looking to move into another career.
Speaking at the Chief of the Air Staff’s Global Air and Space Chiefs’ Conference, he said: “One of our key focus areas at the moment is to try to cut through that bureaucracy.
“Ninety per cent of this process we actually did to ourselves. This is self-harm. It’s extreme. And we’re challenging the air force to become more optimised and we’re reaching out to the squadron level where frankly, that’s where the expertise is.”
His comments came after Prof Justin Bronk, of the Royal United Services Institute, told the same conference panel that he had recently spoken to a fast-jet Major equivalent who explained why he was considering leaving the force.
Prof Bronk said: “He said: ‘I am massively overpaid for the flying bit of my job. I would do it for free. Hell, I would pay for it. I am grotesquely underpaid for the number of hours I have to work on mind-numbingly tedious other tasks and wading through bureaucratic rubbish.’”
He said the airman added: “If I want to be that stressed, I can make three times the money in the private sector, so I’ll go do that. If they want to make my job actually liveable and sustainable then I’d be delighted to continue flying jets for as long as they’ll let me.”
Prof Bronk added that he felt the sentiment “applies to quite a lot” of personnel.
Retention not recruitment is the problem
It was also put to Mr Smyth that the RAF was struggling with recruitment, but he dismissed this.
“I don’t think we have a problem getting youngsters into an air force,” he said. “Everybody wants to be a fighter pilot. Last year we had something like over 16,000 applicants for about 50 pilot positions.
“We do not have a problem attracting, we have a challenge in retaining talent because they come to the service, we teach them very high-end skills ... the trick is how do we keep them in the service and really exploit that experience? Particularly when they’re at the kind of 10 to 15-year point and that’s certainly a big focus for the Royal Air Force.
“My counterpart would say his top three priorities are retention, retention, retention.”
It comes after Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said he wanted Army medics, military nuclear engineers and other service personnel to be able to take other jobs in the public sector to avoid losing them to private companies.
The idea, known as “zig-zagging”, will be announced in the Ministry of Defence’s new Command Paper, which is expected to be published next week before MPs’ summer recess.
RAF accused of self-harm by setting pilots 'mind-numbingly tedious tasks'
The RAF’s levels of bureaucracy are “extreme” self-harm, a senior Air Marshal has said.
Air and Space Commander Harvey Smyth said the RAF was experiencing serious problems with retention, with particular focus on military personnel who have served between 10 and 15 years and may be looking to move into another career.
Speaking at the Chief of the Air Staff’s Global Air and Space Chiefs’ Conference, he said: “One of our key focus areas at the moment is to try to cut through that bureaucracy.
“Ninety per cent of this process we actually did to ourselves. This is self-harm. It’s extreme. And we’re challenging the air force to become more optimised and we’re reaching out to the squadron level where frankly, that’s where the expertise is.”
His comments came after Prof Justin Bronk, of the Royal United Services Institute, told the same conference panel that he had recently spoken to a fast-jet Major equivalent who explained why he was considering leaving the force.
Prof Bronk said: “He said: ‘I am massively overpaid for the flying bit of my job. I would do it for free. Hell, I would pay for it. I am grotesquely underpaid for the number of hours I have to work on mind-numbingly tedious other tasks and wading through bureaucratic rubbish.’”
He said the airman added: “If I want to be that stressed, I can make three times the money in the private sector, so I’ll go do that. If they want to make my job actually liveable and sustainable then I’d be delighted to continue flying jets for as long as they’ll let me.”
Prof Bronk added that he felt the sentiment “applies to quite a lot” of personnel.
Retention not recruitment is the problem
It was also put to Mr Smyth that the RAF was struggling with recruitment, but he dismissed this.
“I don’t think we have a problem getting youngsters into an air force,” he said. “Everybody wants to be a fighter pilot. Last year we had something like over 16,000 applicants for about 50 pilot positions.
“We do not have a problem attracting, we have a challenge in retaining talent because they come to the service, we teach them very high-end skills ... the trick is how do we keep them in the service and really exploit that experience? Particularly when they’re at the kind of 10 to 15-year point and that’s certainly a big focus for the Royal Air Force.
“My counterpart would say his top three priorities are retention, retention, retention.”
It comes after Rishi Sunak, the Prime Minister, said he wanted Army medics, military nuclear engineers and other service personnel to be able to take other jobs in the public sector to avoid losing them to private companies.
The idea, known as “zig-zagging”, will be announced in the Ministry of Defence’s new Command Paper, which is expected to be published next week before MPs’ summer recess.
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Much of the bureaucracy comes from other empires within the military who don't get to play with the big boys toys.
It is an obstacle race to get to the cockpit and get airborne because so many REMFS have invented procedures, checks, processes and admin that make the simple job of going to work, briefing and flying a sortie and going home again so frigging difficult and soul destroying.
Mostly endorsed by those who used to fly but now climb the greasy pole.
It is an obstacle race to get to the cockpit and get airborne because so many REMFS have invented procedures, checks, processes and admin that make the simple job of going to work, briefing and flying a sortie and going home again so frigging difficult and soul destroying.
Mostly endorsed by those who used to fly but now climb the greasy pole.
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Random thoughts
I realise Mr Haythornthwaite has already done his work but if he wishes to make an amendment and call it the BV chapter, that’s fine. I won’t charge.
Firstly, Harv Smyth is bang on. I mentioned it months ago. The USAF call it queep. Cut it out and some pilots will stay.
My last job was on loan service. I lived on a compound with other OF3s (when I wasn’t on the island of dreams) from the Navy, Army and RAF. Aside from the fact that none of them seemed to do any work they were clearly very jealous of the fact that I got paid more and seemed to think that I was being precious when I dared to ask for any form of admin assistance. This despite the fact that my job kept me away from my family all week (on an island 200 miles away) and I worked far longer hours than any of them did in a place where my only way to do any admin was on my own iPhone. The admin OF3 was openly hostile and over officious and clearly did not think that his job was to do admin to help in any way. As a human he did more to push me towards the door than any other individual.
This brings me onto my thoughts on overseas jobs. I remember a comment from an OF4 in group HQ who said that we shouldn’t expect to make money from overseas jobs. He said that OLSA was a big enough perk (taxable by the way) and that LSA and LOA should only be there to compensate for life overseas. Maybe that’s true but when they don’t even do that then the service has got problems. I did three overseas flying jobs out of my seven tours. I volunteered and enjoyed each one. My family and I made the most of them and travelled extensively. The only way we could have saved any money would have been to live like hermits. That would not have been worth the hassle and was not why we went.
I understand the military is having trouble attracting people into overseas posts. Lack of career progression seems to be one reason. I would argue that lack of money would be a bigger one. Loss of spousal earnings, car purchases and sales and setting up a life in another country are expensive and that’s before you’ve even considered enjoying yourself.
If I were a young pilot now I would think very carefully before committing to an overseas post. I just don’t think the financial hit is worth the adventure. Certainly Loan Service has been cut to the bones and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Not until someone realises that maybe people should be able to make money from overseas jobs and enjoy themselves. Maybe that would actually be retention positive and create more rounded individuals. Maybe people would even compete to get overseas jobs again.
Until the RAF realises that their aircrew have a very marketable skillset and they hate doing admin (why are pilots ever writing admin orders and Op orders when we have admin and Ops officers) then retention will suffer.
I understand there is a big review of flying pay due out soon. I live in hope that all my concerns will be addressed and aircrew will get the recognition and rewards they deserve.
I just find it sad that, when I was a JP, all we ever thought about was flying. Nowadays people just seem to think about life beyond the RAF. It seems to me like the system has veered in favour of the idea that it’s cheaper to keep a high staff turnover instead of paying for experience. Any fool can see the obvious problem with that.
Anyway, I apologise for the aircrew (pilot) centric nature of this post. I only talk about what I know. I’ll leave it to others to talk about their own trades.
BV
Firstly, Harv Smyth is bang on. I mentioned it months ago. The USAF call it queep. Cut it out and some pilots will stay.
My last job was on loan service. I lived on a compound with other OF3s (when I wasn’t on the island of dreams) from the Navy, Army and RAF. Aside from the fact that none of them seemed to do any work they were clearly very jealous of the fact that I got paid more and seemed to think that I was being precious when I dared to ask for any form of admin assistance. This despite the fact that my job kept me away from my family all week (on an island 200 miles away) and I worked far longer hours than any of them did in a place where my only way to do any admin was on my own iPhone. The admin OF3 was openly hostile and over officious and clearly did not think that his job was to do admin to help in any way. As a human he did more to push me towards the door than any other individual.
This brings me onto my thoughts on overseas jobs. I remember a comment from an OF4 in group HQ who said that we shouldn’t expect to make money from overseas jobs. He said that OLSA was a big enough perk (taxable by the way) and that LSA and LOA should only be there to compensate for life overseas. Maybe that’s true but when they don’t even do that then the service has got problems. I did three overseas flying jobs out of my seven tours. I volunteered and enjoyed each one. My family and I made the most of them and travelled extensively. The only way we could have saved any money would have been to live like hermits. That would not have been worth the hassle and was not why we went.
I understand the military is having trouble attracting people into overseas posts. Lack of career progression seems to be one reason. I would argue that lack of money would be a bigger one. Loss of spousal earnings, car purchases and sales and setting up a life in another country are expensive and that’s before you’ve even considered enjoying yourself.
If I were a young pilot now I would think very carefully before committing to an overseas post. I just don’t think the financial hit is worth the adventure. Certainly Loan Service has been cut to the bones and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Not until someone realises that maybe people should be able to make money from overseas jobs and enjoy themselves. Maybe that would actually be retention positive and create more rounded individuals. Maybe people would even compete to get overseas jobs again.
Until the RAF realises that their aircrew have a very marketable skillset and they hate doing admin (why are pilots ever writing admin orders and Op orders when we have admin and Ops officers) then retention will suffer.
I understand there is a big review of flying pay due out soon. I live in hope that all my concerns will be addressed and aircrew will get the recognition and rewards they deserve.
I just find it sad that, when I was a JP, all we ever thought about was flying. Nowadays people just seem to think about life beyond the RAF. It seems to me like the system has veered in favour of the idea that it’s cheaper to keep a high staff turnover instead of paying for experience. Any fool can see the obvious problem with that.
Anyway, I apologise for the aircrew (pilot) centric nature of this post. I only talk about what I know. I’ll leave it to others to talk about their own trades.
BV
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"I understand the military is having trouble attracting people into overseas posts. Lack of career progression seems to be one reason. I would argue that lack of money would be a bigger one. Loss of spousal earnings, car purchases and sales and setting up a life in another country are expensive and that’s before you’ve even considered enjoying yourself."
Nail on head there BV, to expect SP and their families to go overseas and be worse off than they were in the UK is just plain dumb, recently LOA was adjusted, suddenly serving in the FI became financially more attractive as they couldn't get anyone to do Continuity Tours. To find the money for that increase they slashed the LOA in Cyprus by nearly half. I'll let you guess what effect that has had on morale in Cyprus and its knock on effect in trying to get volunteers for there.
Spousal employment is huge, 2 wages in the UK to support mortgage/car/child care etc. suddenly dropping to one with reduced LOA is not an attractive prospect. Even when spouses can find employment on camp some of them are employed as Locally Employed Civillians on way below UK minimum wage. We are reaching a tipping point where it really isn't worth the drop in income to serve overseas (especially on an Island in the Med).
Nail on head there BV, to expect SP and their families to go overseas and be worse off than they were in the UK is just plain dumb, recently LOA was adjusted, suddenly serving in the FI became financially more attractive as they couldn't get anyone to do Continuity Tours. To find the money for that increase they slashed the LOA in Cyprus by nearly half. I'll let you guess what effect that has had on morale in Cyprus and its knock on effect in trying to get volunteers for there.
Spousal employment is huge, 2 wages in the UK to support mortgage/car/child care etc. suddenly dropping to one with reduced LOA is not an attractive prospect. Even when spouses can find employment on camp some of them are employed as Locally Employed Civillians on way below UK minimum wage. We are reaching a tipping point where it really isn't worth the drop in income to serve overseas (especially on an Island in the Med).
4everAD
I’ve thought long and hard about how to say the following without offending anyone. Just know that I mean no offence but I’m going to say it anyway.
The problem for the RAF is the Army. Tri-service pay means that RAF pilots are lumped in with Army Corporal pilots who are happy with their deal. It’s the same in Cyprus I imagine. Hundreds of Army personnel in Cyprus will always be the critical mass. The RAF is a bit-part player by comparison. Those young soldiers are probably delighted to receive a bit of extra cash. The older (most RAF personnel in Cyprus will be older and more experienced) RAF people will not be so easily swayed.
We had the same problem in Oman. Too many Army who think they’re on the deal of a lifetime. And to be fair, they are. They do a couple of hours ‘work’ a day and get a big house. All with extra pay. That extra pay by the way was subject to a long overdue review (coincidentally they suddenly found the time to do it during COVID) which decided, in what was touted as decidedly ‘not a cost cutting exercise’, that all OLSA levels should be reduced and that we got too much LOA. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. The cuts made in Oman funded funded rises elsewhere around the world. I’m sure the fact that we got OLSA was factored into it and they deemed we got enough already.
I realised I’d get no sympathy as a PAS pilot in Oman on OLSA, LOA and various other allowances. So when they cut the money I PVR’d and moved elsewhere.
Some might say that I was on a good enough deal anyway. I would counter that if you ask a family to move 4000 miles and only see their Dad/husband at the, shortened, weekends (I did get 22 weeks off a year so maybe don’t feel too sorry for me) and live in a very different culture that I deserved every extra penny. And more. Especially when Dad is a very experienced FJ QFI with multiple job offers elsewhere.
I like to think that I had the last laugh in Oman on the system though. When our allowances were cut (incrementally over four years) I saw only one cut before I left but, due to a quirk with dates and the rapidity of my PVR and exit, we received two payments of the full ‘respite’ allowance. This paid for a family holiday in Zanzibar, at a resort we couldn’t have afforded if it hadn’t been for COVID travel corridors and a separate skiing holiday. So my cut of £6000 in my annual allowances (the full cut once implemented over four years would have been £24000, post tax, per annum less to be replaced by an annual respite allowance of £5000) was replaced by two payments of £5000.
By the way, yes, you read that right. It was announced to me (not everyone was on the same allowances due to family size and job location etc) that I would see a £21500 annual pay cut (once the OLSA drop was factored in) after tax for doing exactly the same job.
So I actually profited from the first year’s change and promptly left. Smug? Me?!
Anyway, what do I know?!
BV
The problem for the RAF is the Army. Tri-service pay means that RAF pilots are lumped in with Army Corporal pilots who are happy with their deal. It’s the same in Cyprus I imagine. Hundreds of Army personnel in Cyprus will always be the critical mass. The RAF is a bit-part player by comparison. Those young soldiers are probably delighted to receive a bit of extra cash. The older (most RAF personnel in Cyprus will be older and more experienced) RAF people will not be so easily swayed.
We had the same problem in Oman. Too many Army who think they’re on the deal of a lifetime. And to be fair, they are. They do a couple of hours ‘work’ a day and get a big house. All with extra pay. That extra pay by the way was subject to a long overdue review (coincidentally they suddenly found the time to do it during COVID) which decided, in what was touted as decidedly ‘not a cost cutting exercise’, that all OLSA levels should be reduced and that we got too much LOA. Robbing Peter to pay Paul. The cuts made in Oman funded funded rises elsewhere around the world. I’m sure the fact that we got OLSA was factored into it and they deemed we got enough already.
I realised I’d get no sympathy as a PAS pilot in Oman on OLSA, LOA and various other allowances. So when they cut the money I PVR’d and moved elsewhere.
Some might say that I was on a good enough deal anyway. I would counter that if you ask a family to move 4000 miles and only see their Dad/husband at the, shortened, weekends (I did get 22 weeks off a year so maybe don’t feel too sorry for me) and live in a very different culture that I deserved every extra penny. And more. Especially when Dad is a very experienced FJ QFI with multiple job offers elsewhere.
I like to think that I had the last laugh in Oman on the system though. When our allowances were cut (incrementally over four years) I saw only one cut before I left but, due to a quirk with dates and the rapidity of my PVR and exit, we received two payments of the full ‘respite’ allowance. This paid for a family holiday in Zanzibar, at a resort we couldn’t have afforded if it hadn’t been for COVID travel corridors and a separate skiing holiday. So my cut of £6000 in my annual allowances (the full cut once implemented over four years would have been £24000, post tax, per annum less to be replaced by an annual respite allowance of £5000) was replaced by two payments of £5000.
By the way, yes, you read that right. It was announced to me (not everyone was on the same allowances due to family size and job location etc) that I would see a £21500 annual pay cut (once the OLSA drop was factored in) after tax for doing exactly the same job.
So I actually profited from the first year’s change and promptly left. Smug? Me?!
Anyway, what do I know?!
BV
Last edited by Bob Viking; 13th Jul 2023 at 11:07.
[QUOTE=Bob Viking;11466547[i]]I realise Mr Haythornthwaite has already done his work but if he wishes to make an amendment and call it the BV chapter, that’s fine. I won’t charge. .........
........................ If I were a young pilot now I would think very carefully before committing to an overseas post. I just don’t think the financial hit is worth the adventure. Certainly Loan Service has been cut to the bones and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Not until someone realises that maybe people should be able to make money from overseas jobs and enjoy themselves. Maybe that would actually be retention positive and create more rounded individuals. Maybe people would even compete to get overseas jobs again. [/i][EDITED BY LB FOR BREVITY]
My "MoD attached RAF" four tours in byegone days lead to me add a further thought in support.
I suggest that many overseas jobs are "sharp-end" compared with many Home tours. A crude generalisation, and involving looking a long way back. If that is still true, then it might follow that we want the best people in these overseas posts. It would also follow that competition for these posts is a good thing. It was certainly the case for Met. in Malta, Cyprus, Gib and BFG [RAFG plus 1 BR Corps plus ARRC]. Our posters were rarely if ever short of volunteers, and the staff I served with were generally younger, keener, and better qualified than the stay-at-Homes. They also integrated much better with their customers, which I found very valuable to both parties.
Given that I retired 26 years ago, the above may be so out of touch as to be worthless. Laugh and tear up!
........................ If I were a young pilot now I would think very carefully before committing to an overseas post. I just don’t think the financial hit is worth the adventure. Certainly Loan Service has been cut to the bones and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. Not until someone realises that maybe people should be able to make money from overseas jobs and enjoy themselves. Maybe that would actually be retention positive and create more rounded individuals. Maybe people would even compete to get overseas jobs again. [/i][EDITED BY LB FOR BREVITY]
My "MoD attached RAF" four tours in byegone days lead to me add a further thought in support.
I suggest that many overseas jobs are "sharp-end" compared with many Home tours. A crude generalisation, and involving looking a long way back. If that is still true, then it might follow that we want the best people in these overseas posts. It would also follow that competition for these posts is a good thing. It was certainly the case for Met. in Malta, Cyprus, Gib and BFG [RAFG plus 1 BR Corps plus ARRC]. Our posters were rarely if ever short of volunteers, and the staff I served with were generally younger, keener, and better qualified than the stay-at-Homes. They also integrated much better with their customers, which I found very valuable to both parties.
Given that I retired 26 years ago, the above may be so out of touch as to be worthless. Laugh and tear up!
Speaking at the Chief of the Air Staff’s Global Air and Space Chiefs’ Conference, he said: “One of our key focus areas at the moment is to try to cut through that bureaucracy.
“Ninety per cent of this process we actually did to ourselves. This is self-harm. It’s extreme. And we’re challenging the air force to become more optimised and we’re reaching out to the squadron level where frankly, that’s where the expertise is[/QUOTE]
At last, out of the mouth of a VSO! It takes an organisation of genius to make flying Typhoon or F35 a miserable way of life. (Can’t speak for other fleets)
“Ninety per cent of this process we actually did to ourselves. This is self-harm. It’s extreme. And we’re challenging the air force to become more optimised and we’re reaching out to the squadron level where frankly, that’s where the expertise is[/QUOTE]
At last, out of the mouth of a VSO! It takes an organisation of genius to make flying Typhoon or F35 a miserable way of life. (Can’t speak for other fleets)
There is a recruitment video doing the rounds at the moment for Riyadh Air, targeting 787 and 777 trainers. So one could argue loan service for airline pilots! No firm numbers easily obtainable but suggestions are of up to a million $ US. Puts the RAF loan service jobs into perspective!
Flexibility of military time ‘zig-zagging’
The concept of leaving and re-entering a military career at a later stage in life is interesting but a little naive in its current guise. I have been subject to a couple of conversations on the matter and it has never been attractive enough to make it fly for me or the family. Firstly (unless it has changed , and if so I am glad to hear it) the ability to re-enter at appropriate rank (read: life and workplace experience and pay) is not available , rather being tied to previous rank and perhaps one-up. Secondly, the lifestyle and income opportunities available to those with the qualities that the military would want are significantly better than those that can be offered. Yes, the roles ‘can’ be unique and fulfilling in their own way (flying jets and working as a team at something greater etc) but we have already done that and left. It is in our nature to want to move to the next ‘greater’ opportunity and why would I try and sell the family on a lower standard of life in a part of the world we would never chose?
It’s been said here before - you would get all those who were not suited to life outside the military or, who did not ‘succeed’. The real gain of such a flexible system will likely never be tapped. Believe it or not, there are many things the military can learn from those who understand the military and have done other things.
It’s been said here before - you would get all those who were not suited to life outside the military or, who did not ‘succeed’. The real gain of such a flexible system will likely never be tapped. Believe it or not, there are many things the military can learn from those who understand the military and have done other things.
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The 3 stages of a pilots life
1) Chase the tin
2) Chase the money
3) Chase the lifestyle
It use to be that RCAF like the RAF could offer 1 and 3. Now you won't see any cool tin for years because of the Feckedup recruiting and training system, the money isn't great and the lifestyle is a little bit of flying followed by a soul crushing amount of low value added administration, so Ohh for Three.....
1) Chase the tin
2) Chase the money
3) Chase the lifestyle
It use to be that RCAF like the RAF could offer 1 and 3. Now you won't see any cool tin for years because of the Feckedup recruiting and training system, the money isn't great and the lifestyle is a little bit of flying followed by a soul crushing amount of low value added administration, so Ohh for Three.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The Wavell Room:
NEW: The Haythornthwaite review proposed radical changes to career management and reward systems. Recommendations put forward in this paper would be effective in treating one of the most contentious issues – the way military parents are managed.
https://wavellroom.com/2023/07/21/im...hwaite-review/
Why We Shouldn’t Wait To Implement Haythornthwaite
NEW: The Haythornthwaite review proposed radical changes to career management and reward systems. Recommendations put forward in this paper would be effective in treating one of the most contentious issues – the way military parents are managed.
https://wavellroom.com/2023/07/21/im...hwaite-review/
Why We Shouldn’t Wait To Implement Haythornthwaite
