Haythornthwaite Review of Armed Forces Incentivisation
I have read the report in detail now and, if implemented, the recommendations will make a difference. As previous posters have noted though, without adequate pay (and I mean adequate, not any great riches) it’s difficult to see how MoD are going to stem the outflow and retain experience. I predict that when this year’s pay award is made, probably in September, Wallace will stand up and quote the most recent inflation figure as proof that the award isn’t far below inflation (because it will be below), failing to note that the award was due in April when inflation was around 9%. A colleague of mine noted that since 2008 his pay had increased by 18% while inflation had risen by 43%.
I think that there will always be a belief in the military that rank and pay are highly correlated (apart from doctors…GP average pay £72000 compared with well over £100000 in the military where working conditions are also much better for them…go figure). A FJ pilot five years out of the OCU will probably be on £52500….how is possible to justify this? Oh, that includes a 14.5% X factor uplift for being in the military.
I think that there will always be a belief in the military that rank and pay are highly correlated (apart from doctors…GP average pay £72000 compared with well over £100000 in the military where working conditions are also much better for them…go figure). A FJ pilot five years out of the OCU will probably be on £52500….how is possible to justify this? Oh, that includes a 14.5% X factor uplift for being in the military.
Can you ever recall a period when this has been attempted or achieved. Your ignorant £52500 for a FJ pilot conveniently ignores the point when they do receive RRP. Can you let me know how much that is please?
We were all keen thrusters as youngsters, so the money was not No1. The love of flying and subsidised life is what counts. It’s later that money becomes key, and then RRP kicks in.
You tell a nurse or a bin man that you deserve more pay, because you deserve it or you’re not going to do it, and see their gratitude turn to hatred.
Difficult times for all, and if a recession comes your stem will be sorted naturally.
A FJ pilot five years out of the OCU will probably be on £52,000. How is [it] possible to justify this?
Nothing like your £52.5k at all
Figures in last year’s AFPRB report: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...st-report-2022
Well that is incorrect for a start. A FJ Pilot that is 5 years out of an OCU today has probably joined in 2013. They hit Valley in around 2016 and graduated from an OpCon in 2018. Now in 2023, 10 years later, they would have spent 2.5 years as a Fg Off and 7.5 years as a Flt Lt. That puts them on £51,500 according to LJ’s post. They will be on Middle Rate RRP(F) of £10,161 per year - total £66,661. Next year they would transition to Tier 2 Rate 1 on the new RRP(F) which is £14,844 per year and they will go to the final level of Flt Lt of £52,868 - total £67,712. In 2025 they will go up another £1k in RRP(F) and be eligible for the first of 2x Aircrew Retention Payments of £40k. If they are a QWI on Typhoon there is also an additional £25k available for them.
Nothing like your £52.5k at all
Figures in last year’s AFPRB report: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...st-report-2022
Nothing like your £52.5k at all
Figures in last year’s AFPRB report: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...st-report-2022
be consigned to history very shortly. A signing-on incentive is available at the 6 year point in return for a further 5 years service. So, very shortly, we will have pilots flying aircraft 5 years post OCU only being paid as a Flt Lt….top rate is £52500. To expand further, the FRI will be taxed at 40% and (above £100k income) 60%. The pension, while not bad is not as generous as previous schemes for those not able to choose anything other than 15.
To answer a previous post, there have been numerous attempts to retain pilots over years, starting with the introduction of a higher rate of FP and then an enhanced rate. Then an FRI in the late 1990s and PAS. Every attempt has subsequently been withdrawn or watered down (eg PAS restriction to level 30 for Flt Lt).
The sad thing form my perspective is the military is missing out in retaining experience (recruitment is never going to be an issue). Also, the taxpayer is shelling out for hugely expensive training for very little return. £5.25m to train a FJ pilot at the last count…for what? 10 years in the cockpit? 1000hrs? £5000 per flying hour…and most of that training to build experience….which is then let go.
BV was spot on, just pay what your civilian comparators as paying.
Flying pay is no longer payable until a pilot has completed 6 years post OCU. I accept the figures above, but they will
be consigned to history very shortly. A signing-on incentive is available at the 6 year point in return for a further 5 years service. So, very shortly, we will have pilots flying aircraft 5 years post OCU only being paid as a Flt Lt….top rate is £52500. To expand further, the FRI will be taxed at 40% and (above £100k income) 60%. The pension, while not bad is not as generous as previous schemes for those not able to choose anything other than 15.
To answer a previous post, there have been numerous attempts to retain pilots over years, starting with the introduction of a higher rate of FP and then an enhanced rate. Then an FRI in the late 1990s and PAS. Every attempt has subsequently been withdrawn or watered down (eg PAS restriction to level 30 for Flt Lt).
The sad thing form my perspective is the military is missing out in retaining experience (recruitment is never going to be an issue). Also, the taxpayer is shelling out for hugely expensive training for very little return. £5.25m to train a FJ pilot at the last count…for what? 10 years in the cockpit? 1000hrs? £5000 per flying hour…and most of that training to build experience….which is then let go.
BV was spot on, just pay what your civilian comparators as paying.
be consigned to history very shortly. A signing-on incentive is available at the 6 year point in return for a further 5 years service. So, very shortly, we will have pilots flying aircraft 5 years post OCU only being paid as a Flt Lt….top rate is £52500. To expand further, the FRI will be taxed at 40% and (above £100k income) 60%. The pension, while not bad is not as generous as previous schemes for those not able to choose anything other than 15.
To answer a previous post, there have been numerous attempts to retain pilots over years, starting with the introduction of a higher rate of FP and then an enhanced rate. Then an FRI in the late 1990s and PAS. Every attempt has subsequently been withdrawn or watered down (eg PAS restriction to level 30 for Flt Lt).
The sad thing form my perspective is the military is missing out in retaining experience (recruitment is never going to be an issue). Also, the taxpayer is shelling out for hugely expensive training for very little return. £5.25m to train a FJ pilot at the last count…for what? 10 years in the cockpit? 1000hrs? £5000 per flying hour…and most of that training to build experience….which is then let go.
BV was spot on, just pay what your civilian comparators as paying.
It isn’t money, it’s the T&Cs that is destroying the status quo. Civilian airlines give a lease of life when the bxllshlt gets too much.
Let’s encourage a healthy flow from recruitment to retirement. If it’s about the money then we know what pays best, why tantrum and whine, just do!
Just get pilots through the door, train them wherever and let them fly. Retention is not the issue you are making it out to be.
It isn’t money, it’s the T&Cs that is destroying the status quo. Civilian airlines give a lease of life when the bxllshlt gets too much.
Let’s encourage a healthy flow from recruitment to retirement. If it’s about the money then we know what pays best, why tantrum and whine, just do!
It isn’t money, it’s the T&Cs that is destroying the status quo. Civilian airlines give a lease of life when the bxllshlt gets too much.
Let’s encourage a healthy flow from recruitment to retirement. If it’s about the money then we know what pays best, why tantrum and whine, just do!
No, that is incorrect.
Firstly, Tier 1 RRP(F) is paid to those that started flying training after 1 Apr 17 on the 6 year anniversary of starting flying training. Tier 1 RRP(F) is about £4,500. It is only Tier 2 rates that kick in at OCU+6 and that increments over 7 levels annually from around £14.8k to £21.5k.
Secondly, the first Aircrew Retention Payment (ARP1) is available at LOS12 and 6 years after OCU completion. It is £40k and it comes with a 3 year return of service. The second one is available after the first and is a similar amount with another separate 3 year return. Other FRIs also exist.
Thirdly, you need to get towards £125k in a personal tax year to get to the full 60% point over £100k - it’s a tapering scale of losing your £12.5k tax free allowance. So taking £52.5k Flt Lt Main Pay and £14.8kRRP(F) you get £67.3k. Add £40k ARP1 then you get £107.3k in that tax year. Your total income tax on that amount would be around £31.8k and £5.6k NI. So of your £107.3k you get to keep £69.9k - that means you are “taxed”, which includes income tax and NI, at just 35% for your £107.3k annual income in total. You can do the maths here if you like… https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
Fourthly, the AFPS15 pension is WAY MORE generous for many than anything that went before at pension earning ages (not EDP). On Early Departure Payment (EDP) compared to AFPS75 immediate pension and AFPS05 EDP, then AFPS05 is less generous in mid career. But at full career (age 60) or in retirement at State Pension Age then AFPS15 is massively more generous for many for the same lengths of service than 75 and 15. Why is that? You accrue at 1/47th rather than 1/70th for AFPS05, and for AFPS75 they use representative rates of pay that stop accruing after age 55 for officers (so the last 5 years are effectively non-pensionable to age 60). You can again do the maths here: https://mod-pc.co.uk
Finally, you can read in the last AFPRB review about what they plan to do for the future:
So it looks like all Aircrew will be going onto a bespoke PAS-like pay spine at OF2 and below. That RRP(F) is being canned for ‘Aircrew Supplement’. That these ARPs I’ve mentioned already exist. That the MOD appears to be taking this into serious consideration. Whether that delivers on what is needed, then we will need to wait out and see what they say this month in the latest AFPRB report. I suspect your fictional 5.5 year Typhoon Pilot will never need to wait for Tier 2 RRP(F) as this new scheme should be here well before they reach OCU+6 having started flying training after 1 Apr 17 (which if they spent 6 years in Flying Training as has been quoted, it would be 2028/9 before they get to OCU + 6 years).
Flying pay is no longer payable until a pilot has completed 6 years post OCU. I accept the figures above, but they will
be consigned to history very shortly. A signing-on incentive is available at the 6 year point in return for a further 5 years service. So, very shortly, we will have pilots flying aircraft 5 years post OCU only being paid as a Flt Lt….top rate is £52500. To expand further, the FRI will be taxed at 40% and (above £100k income) 60%. The pension, while not bad is not as generous as previous schemes for those not able to choose anything other than 15.
To answer a previous post, there have been numerous attempts to retain pilots over years, starting with the introduction of a higher rate of FP and then an enhanced rate. Then an FRI in the late 1990s and PAS. Every attempt has subsequently been withdrawn or watered down (eg PAS restriction to level 30 for Flt Lt).
be consigned to history very shortly. A signing-on incentive is available at the 6 year point in return for a further 5 years service. So, very shortly, we will have pilots flying aircraft 5 years post OCU only being paid as a Flt Lt….top rate is £52500. To expand further, the FRI will be taxed at 40% and (above £100k income) 60%. The pension, while not bad is not as generous as previous schemes for those not able to choose anything other than 15.
To answer a previous post, there have been numerous attempts to retain pilots over years, starting with the introduction of a higher rate of FP and then an enhanced rate. Then an FRI in the late 1990s and PAS. Every attempt has subsequently been withdrawn or watered down (eg PAS restriction to level 30 for Flt Lt).
Secondly, the first Aircrew Retention Payment (ARP1) is available at LOS12 and 6 years after OCU completion. It is £40k and it comes with a 3 year return of service. The second one is available after the first and is a similar amount with another separate 3 year return. Other FRIs also exist.
Thirdly, you need to get towards £125k in a personal tax year to get to the full 60% point over £100k - it’s a tapering scale of losing your £12.5k tax free allowance. So taking £52.5k Flt Lt Main Pay and £14.8kRRP(F) you get £67.3k. Add £40k ARP1 then you get £107.3k in that tax year. Your total income tax on that amount would be around £31.8k and £5.6k NI. So of your £107.3k you get to keep £69.9k - that means you are “taxed”, which includes income tax and NI, at just 35% for your £107.3k annual income in total. You can do the maths here if you like… https://www.thesalarycalculator.co.uk/salary.php
Fourthly, the AFPS15 pension is WAY MORE generous for many than anything that went before at pension earning ages (not EDP). On Early Departure Payment (EDP) compared to AFPS75 immediate pension and AFPS05 EDP, then AFPS05 is less generous in mid career. But at full career (age 60) or in retirement at State Pension Age then AFPS15 is massively more generous for many for the same lengths of service than 75 and 15. Why is that? You accrue at 1/47th rather than 1/70th for AFPS05, and for AFPS75 they use representative rates of pay that stop accruing after age 55 for officers (so the last 5 years are effectively non-pensionable to age 60). You can again do the maths here: https://mod-pc.co.uk
Finally, you can read in the last AFPRB review about what they plan to do for the future:
We agree in principle to the introduction of a new pay spine for all Aircrew up to OF-2, with the potential to expand the eligible cohort to OF-3 if required, with further details to be provided for approval in Pay Round 23.
We agree in principle the introduction of an Aircrew Supplement for eligible Aircrew up to OF-5, with further details to be provided for approval in Pay Round 23.
We recommend a Retention Payment for eligible personnel (including Senior Non-Commissioned Officer pilots) to be paid in two instalments of £40,000 each and both with a three-year Return of Service, with effect from 1 April 2023.
We recommend the introduction of a Retention Payment of £15,000 for Non-Commissioned Aircrew (except Senior Non-Commissioned Officer pilots) at the 12-year point with a two-year Return of Service, with effect from 1 April 2023.
We agree in principle the introduction of an Aircrew Supplement for eligible Aircrew up to OF-5, with further details to be provided for approval in Pay Round 23.
We recommend a Retention Payment for eligible personnel (including Senior Non-Commissioned Officer pilots) to be paid in two instalments of £40,000 each and both with a three-year Return of Service, with effect from 1 April 2023.
We recommend the introduction of a Retention Payment of £15,000 for Non-Commissioned Aircrew (except Senior Non-Commissioned Officer pilots) at the 12-year point with a two-year Return of Service, with effect from 1 April 2023.
Meanwhile all the pilots will be sat around with nothing to do as TG1 will all be out the door into civvy Street due to the cost of living and increased prospects for pay/work life balance. The government need to think very hard about the message they want to send out with this upcoming pay review.
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I think you have misunderstood my motive in advocating reasonable pay for pilots. If you retain them longer, you reduce the costs of the training system and as a bonus you retain experience, making your output more effective, reducing training and supervision within your frontline force.
Maybe not HR, though, I suspect they are much better off staying in.
my point is that this needs to be nipped in the bud, if the pay isn’t enough, it’s time to leave. We’re not enriching Uranium here.
The new way of thinking is that people will dip in and out of the military throughout their working lifes. That's all well and good but what happens once that fresh faced 18 year old has spent 6 years in the RAF then moves to civvy street on more money, no deployments, stability etc. What the hell is going to persuade them to dip back in again??
‘Firstly, Tier 1 RRP(F) is paid to those that started flying training after 1 Apr 17 on the 6 year anniversary of starting flying training. Tier 1 RRP(F) is about £4,500.’
Ah, I didn’t know that. So £57k a year. About par with a train driver then. From what I see the FRIs and increased flying pay later on are not having the desired effect on retention in my fleet.
‘Thirdly, you need to get towards £125k in a personal tax year to get to the full 60% point over £100k’
Every pound you earn over £100k is taxed at 60% until you reach £125k when it reverts to 45%.
And to answer a previous poster, as far as new ideas are concerned I would argue that they are not solely the preserve of new joiners. I still propose improvements to working practices 40 years after joining….and a lot of those improvements are based on experience. You need a mix of age and experience in your fleet.
BTW, I’m not focussed solely on the two wing master race, it just happens to be my area of specialist knowledge. I know other trades/branches are struggling too.
Ah, I didn’t know that. So £57k a year. About par with a train driver then. From what I see the FRIs and increased flying pay later on are not having the desired effect on retention in my fleet.
‘Thirdly, you need to get towards £125k in a personal tax year to get to the full 60% point over £100k’
Every pound you earn over £100k is taxed at 60% until you reach £125k when it reverts to 45%.
And to answer a previous poster, as far as new ideas are concerned I would argue that they are not solely the preserve of new joiners. I still propose improvements to working practices 40 years after joining….and a lot of those improvements are based on experience. You need a mix of age and experience in your fleet.
BTW, I’m not focussed solely on the two wing master race, it just happens to be my area of specialist knowledge. I know other trades/branches are struggling too.
A refreshing change
What would be nice would be if some of the 20-30 years olds currently serving could give us their opinion on the matter. I am very aware that my opinion no longer matters and my world view is already very different to those still serving. The problem is that most of the younger folk no longer bother with this forum and are actively discouraged from posting here anyway.
Whilst I fully appreciate the benefits of the military pension I can’t help feeling that trying to convince an underpaid, under appreciated and highly skilled employee that the best thing about their job is the pension they’ll get in 30-40 years time is a dangerous tactic to rely on.
BV
Whilst I fully appreciate the benefits of the military pension I can’t help feeling that trying to convince an underpaid, under appreciated and highly skilled employee that the best thing about their job is the pension they’ll get in 30-40 years time is a dangerous tactic to rely on.
BV
The new way of thinking is that people will dip in and out of the military throughout their working lifes. That's all well and good but what happens once that fresh faced 18 year old has spent 6 years in the RAF then moves to civvy street on more money, no deployments, stability etc. What the hell is going to persuade them to dip back in again??
What would be nice would be if some of the 20-30 years olds currently serving could give us their opinion on the matter. I am very aware that my opinion no longer matters and my world view is already very different to those still serving. The problem is that most of the younger folk no longer bother with this forum and are actively discouraged from posting here anyway.
Whilst I fully appreciate the benefits of the military pension I can’t help feeling that trying to convince an underpaid, under appreciated and highly skilled employee that the best thing about their job is the pension they’ll get in 30-40 years time is a dangerous tactic to rely on.
BV
Whilst I fully appreciate the benefits of the military pension I can’t help feeling that trying to convince an underpaid, under appreciated and highly skilled employee that the best thing about their job is the pension they’ll get in 30-40 years time is a dangerous tactic to rely on.
BV
After 50*, you think of nothing else.
* other benchmarks are available.
Herewith another observation, to misquote JP Hartley: "the present is a different country .........". Young people are very different. My married, 1st Class Hons, very well paid granddaughter is about to "see Asia" backpacking for three months. She has not told her employer, has little expectation of getting unpaid leave and the job back and all her focus is on "experiences". She is far from untypical. Did we old scrotes get it wrong? Very possibly!
Langleybaston,
Regarding your comment about the youth of today "gathering experiences", I would offer the following comment.
I was born and raised on a council estate in the 60s. My parents aspirations for me were to be a plumber or electrician in my home town. I wanted to join the RAF, to fly and see more of the world. My 33 year RAF career provided me with many "experiences" that I would never otherwise have achieved, and paid me quite well at the same time.
So maybe there are similarities about the aspirations of the young of any generation.
Regarding your comment about the youth of today "gathering experiences", I would offer the following comment.
I was born and raised on a council estate in the 60s. My parents aspirations for me were to be a plumber or electrician in my home town. I wanted to join the RAF, to fly and see more of the world. My 33 year RAF career provided me with many "experiences" that I would never otherwise have achieved, and paid me quite well at the same time.
So maybe there are similarities about the aspirations of the young of any generation.
Last edited by Biggus; 29th Jun 2023 at 13:54.
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BV, interestingly the report talks about enabling trading pay for pension for 'junior cohorts'.
2.34. Even our proof-of-concept analysis suggests places to start. The Armed Forces’ pension offer makes up 35% of the total reward expenditure. While we acknowledge it is not as flexible as other elements of the reward package, much more can be done to improve value for money and to move to a system that better incentivises at the individual and organisational level.
2.35. Given the comparatively little value placed on the pension by younger cohorts, there must be significant motivational impact and value for money to be gained by improving their understanding of what they really get. A personal pension value statement, along the lines of that produced for civil servants, would allow personnel to see the continually increasing value of their pension.
2.36. There would also be value in developing a model that allows more choice around pensions for junior cohorts. OR2 and OR3s account for 26% of Armed Forces’ reward costs. If, as our analysis suggests, they would prefer more pay to pension, there could be a win-win improvement in value for money. This should not be a cover to leave personnel without a good pension, but the current scheme is so generous that there seems to be scope for trade-off. A ‘pay in lieu of pension’ scheme has already been developed elsewhere in government and should be carefully considered here.
2.35. Given the comparatively little value placed on the pension by younger cohorts, there must be significant motivational impact and value for money to be gained by improving their understanding of what they really get. A personal pension value statement, along the lines of that produced for civil servants, would allow personnel to see the continually increasing value of their pension.
2.36. There would also be value in developing a model that allows more choice around pensions for junior cohorts. OR2 and OR3s account for 26% of Armed Forces’ reward costs. If, as our analysis suggests, they would prefer more pay to pension, there could be a win-win improvement in value for money. This should not be a cover to leave personnel without a good pension, but the current scheme is so generous that there seems to be scope for trade-off. A ‘pay in lieu of pension’ scheme has already been developed elsewhere in government and should be carefully considered here.
As explained by many financial advisers the 50% (£1 for every £2 earned) clawback of personal allowance starting at £100k means the effective tax rate is 60% until the allowance reaches 0.
e.g. https://www.sjp.co.uk/news/beat-the-60-tax-trap
e.g. https://www.sjp.co.uk/news/beat-the-60-tax-trap
Last edited by SLXOwft; 29th Jun 2023 at 16:16.
Agreed, but it’s a really dopey way of looking at it - and a way for tax advisors to get you to spend lots of your cash trying to avoid paying that small amount of tax in the grand scheme of things. You need to look at the whole scheme overall (I won’t cover Scotland as hopefully they will see the light like the rest of the UK and kick out the lot that swindle them out of 1% extra tax to be squandered like they appear to have done with membership fees on motor homes!). So the current scheme is
0% up to £12,570
20% over £12,570 to £50,270
40% over £50,270 to £125,140 (plus that over £100k at up to 60%)
45% over £125,140
Now let’s look at some figures for overall income tax alone using 2023/24 tax figures:
Income £90,000 - tax paid £23,432 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 26%
Income £98,000 - tax paid £26,632 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 27.1%
Income £105,000 - tax paid £30,432 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 29%
Income £113,000 - tax paid £35,233 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 31.2%
Income £145,000 - tax paid £51,453 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 35.5%
So, it really doesn’t matter that much (certainly not the 60% over £100k alarmist headline number) and it just means that the more that you earn, the more tax by percentage you pay. But you still get paid more. That’s life. If you work for the RAF or the airlines or a defence contractor, we all pay the same tax in the UK. The only way to beat that is to move abroad, live in a compound in the middle-east, and save up some tax free cash!
I guess the alternative is to paid less, so that you pay less tax, but you still get paid less. That would be just bonkers!!!
0% up to £12,570
20% over £12,570 to £50,270
40% over £50,270 to £125,140 (plus that over £100k at up to 60%)
45% over £125,140
Now let’s look at some figures for overall income tax alone using 2023/24 tax figures:
Income £90,000 - tax paid £23,432 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 26%
Income £98,000 - tax paid £26,632 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 27.1%
Income £105,000 - tax paid £30,432 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 29%
Income £113,000 - tax paid £35,233 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 31.2%
Income £145,000 - tax paid £51,453 - percentage of income tax paid across whole amount = 35.5%
So, it really doesn’t matter that much (certainly not the 60% over £100k alarmist headline number) and it just means that the more that you earn, the more tax by percentage you pay. But you still get paid more. That’s life. If you work for the RAF or the airlines or a defence contractor, we all pay the same tax in the UK. The only way to beat that is to move abroad, live in a compound in the middle-east, and save up some tax free cash!
I guess the alternative is to paid less, so that you pay less tax, but you still get paid less. That would be just bonkers!!!