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On the 30th of May 1973 the First RAF Jaguar was delivered to the OCU and so began

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On the 30th of May 1973 the First RAF Jaguar was delivered to the OCU and so began

Old 30th May 2023, 02:05
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Originally Posted by Shaft109
I've read that the Jaguar had somewhat tricky handling just beyond it's limits - could someone please expand on this?
They didn’t spin well was one issue. Modern aircraft are better to work on as ergonomics have been looked at, but some of the older types you felt like a gynaecologist working at distance while peering through a small hole, the advantage being it generally smelt better.

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Old 30th May 2023, 04:21
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That is a pretty nasty, unstable spin if the controls were not neutralised rapidly. Could sell that at 6-Flags.
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Old 30th May 2023, 09:30
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The video is of the single seater high alpha departure trials with the French M prototype in 1972 I believe. The T bird trials were done in the UK with E02.

Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 30th May 2023 at 11:52.
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Old 30th May 2023, 15:26
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
"Mixed feelings " summates maintaining the Jag perfectly.

On the Line, very easy and somebody had obviously given some thought to access...the brake unit held on by a circlip was innovative shall we say, however, a wheel or brake change wasn't that simple due to no jacking points on the u/c. which tended to be time consuming Another little quirk was having to rotate the engine, mid lift in / out, which I never really felt comfortable with and, strangely, the very slender cable when doing a battery change.
Indeed, LRU changes in the main were easy. The engine 3 point turns due to the keel, alas required due to the narrow design, maybe the crackers , detectors and TGT amps could have been put somewhere else. At least one didn't have to break their back to fit a battery. Arced a cable once on a battery, new cable required.

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
For 2nd line, or Depth as its now kindly referred to, fuel tank access was "difficult "....however, a special, very special mention, goes to whoever decided it would be a terribly good idea to provide the titanium heat shields...., without pilot holes and oversized.!
Because the heat shields were made in Britain. We don't need a jig! Amazingly most of the French parts were interchangable. Unlike our bits. Crab unit spring boxs give me nightmares.

Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
Found the back seat rides to be very comfortable and stable at LL when flying in what would be termed " a good gliding day " conditions.

Overall, the Jag was a winner.
Concur.

Last edited by Diff Tail Shim; 30th May 2023 at 17:00.
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Old 30th May 2023, 16:45
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The Mighty Cat

Despite some very kind and flattering messages Iím not sure what I can add to this thread. Other than to confirm the 12/14/17 AoA switch was indeed a thing.

BV
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Old 30th May 2023, 16:51
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Raf T bird spinning at 1:30 ish

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Old 30th May 2023, 16:56
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
"Mixed feelings " summates maintaining the Jag perfectly.

On the Line, very easy and somebody had obviously given some thought to access...the brake unit held on by a circlip was innovative shall we say, however, a wheel or brake change wasn't that simple due to no jacking points on the u/c. which tended to be time consuming Another little quirk was having to rotate the engine, mid lift in / out, which I never really felt comfortable with and, strangely, the very slender cable when doing a battery change.

For 2nd line, or Depth as its now kindly referred to, fuel tank access was "difficult "....however, a special, very special mention, goes to whoever decided it would be a terribly good idea to provide the titanium heat shields...., without pilot holes and oversized.!

Found the back seat rides to be very comfortable and stable at LL when flying in what would be termed " a good gliding day " conditions.

Overall, the Jag was a winner.
Originally Posted by NutLoose
Raf T bird spinning at 1:30 ish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycJ1m0PRYEM
French Prototypes spinning during the high alpha depart trials by the manufacturers. Single seat is M05 (not fuel, is the smoke from the smoke generator for tracking) and Cockpit is Tim Ferguson in E02.
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Old 30th May 2023, 17:02
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
Despite some very kind and flattering messages Iím not sure what I can add to this thread. Other than to confirm the 12/14/17 AoA switch was indeed a thing.

BV
That changed the stall warning tone generator to activate when the AoA vane reached the set angle. BV may know if there was visual warning on the GR3 HUD as well?
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Old 30th May 2023, 17:35
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DTS

I believe the AoA scale changed in the HUD to show that but I havenít been near a Jag since July 2007 so I really canít say for certain. There will be others who may remember better than I.

BV
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Old 30th May 2023, 23:49
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
50 years of RAF service, both front line and in training support....


With a scant two days to run, I thought I better get a mention in for the old girl..... It started its service life in the RAF training engineers and is ending it doing the same.








Thunder and Lightnings write up. Seems the facts maybe wrong. XX111 didn't go to Lossie until September 1973 as witnessed by some bloke on a Jag FB forum whom was at Lossiemouth waiting for the type to arrive.
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Old 31st May 2023, 00:01
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
ďWe plough the fields and scatter the Jaguars from the landĒ

Cat 4/5 Accident Rates per 10,000 flying hours
Jag 1.02/10,000fg hrs (>1973)
GR7/9 0.97/10,000fg hrs (>1988)
GR1/4 0.59/10,000fg hrs (>1980)
F3 0.28/10,000fg hrs (>1985)

Quite shocking and goodness knows what that accident rate would have been in the hands of inexperienced students. People often think that the Harrier was the worst in recent times, but the dear old Jag had a truly shocking loss rate in training accidents linked to its handling characteristics at high alpha and lack of SEP.

Here is a list of those losses: https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/JAGR
The 10 year IFS report into the Jaguars from 1984 intro mentions 38 frame loses and 20 fatalities in the intro. Only 10 of those accidents could not be determined if pilot error or another cause was the issue. Other 28 had defined reasons such as bird strikes, mid airs tech fails, pilot error and of course only aircraft to be shot down by a RAF guided AAM.

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Old 31st May 2023, 07:46
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet
We plough the fields and scatter the Jaguars from the land

Cat 4/5 Accident Rates per 10,000 flying hours
Jag 1.02/10,000fg hrs (>1973)
GR7/9 0.97/10,000fg hrs (>1988)
GR1/4 0.59/10,000fg hrs (>1980)
F3 0.28/10,000fg hrs (>1985)

Quite shocking and goodness knows what that accident rate would have been in the hands of inexperienced students. People often think that the Harrier was the worst in recent times, but the dear old Jag had a truly shocking loss rate in training accidents linked to its handling characteristics at high alpha and lack of SEP.

Even more shocking if compared to current platforms, for example Typhoon, especially those in RAF operation.
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Old 31st May 2023, 08:57
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Originally Posted by Pault

Even more shocking if compared to current platforms, for example Typhoon, especially those in RAF operation.
Nowhere near as many aeroplanes flying low level and those that do have better navigation, ground proximity warning and TCAS systems that give a few seconds warning. Ergonomics helped as well as the cockpit of a Jag was a slum at the beginning and several accidents could well be attributed to the cause of them being due to having to look down to do a mundane but required task. However 8 Squadrons of Jags would be capable to launch all their aircraft if at war footing with a very high percentage of them able to take off. You never saw that with any other comparable type.
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Old 31st May 2023, 10:24
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
Thunder and Lightnings write up. Seems the facts maybe wrong. XX111 didn't go to Lossie until September 1973 as witnessed by some bloke on a Jag FB forum whom was at Lossiemouth waiting for the type to arrive.
Well that will be the first time a Jag arrived early for anything, if the true date is September.
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Old 31st May 2023, 10:34
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Originally Posted by Diff Tail Shim
Nowhere near as many aeroplanes flying low level and those that do have better navigation, ground proximity warning and TCAS systems that give a few seconds warning. Ergonomics helped as well as the cockpit of a Jag was a slum at the beginning and several accidents could well be attributed to the cause of them being due to having to look down to do a mundane but required task. However 8 Squadrons of Jags would be capable to launch all their aircraft if at war footing with a very high percentage of them able to take off. You never saw that with any other comparable type.

And with the minimum of manpower involved, it was very low manpower intensive compared to some types.... ahh many an hour at cease flying wandering round the HAS's and shoving a borosope up the arse end of each engine...

Ahh yes, the early cockpits, the GR1A ish, it looked like it had British designers fingers all over it, here is one I took earlier.

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Old 31st May 2023, 15:00
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Ahh a Dark Cockpit I see.......................
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Old 31st May 2023, 21:08
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Originally Posted by NutLoose


And with the minimum of manpower involved, it was very low manpower intensive compared to some types.... ahh many an hour at cease flying wandering round the HAS's and shoving a borosope up the arse end of each engine...

Ahh yes, the early cockpits, the GR1A ish, it looked like it had British designers fingers all over it, here is one I took earlier.

Jurrasic GR1. Not an A. Head down NCU and IFF twist to the side. Down to trade cover for duty supper and last orders in the bowl in the old days. Seems XX111 did a landaway at Lossie on the 30th of May 1973. 34 years and 1 day later the Last Jag unit stood down.
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:37
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One thing about the Jaguar was that it was actually bought in useful numbers from the start - not the sort of 1 every couple of months drizzle of F-35's..................
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Old 1st Jun 2023, 09:47
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" And with the minimum of manpower involved, it was very low manpower intensive compared to some types.... ahh many an hour at cease flying wandering round the HAS's and shoving a borosope up the arse end of each engine...

Ahh yes, the early cockpits, the GR1A ish, it looked like it had British designers fingers all over it, here is one I took earlier."

You missed out the delights of an intake / comp inspection where size, as they say, did matter.

That, and the BCV's and the "it looks perfectly satisfactory on my drawing board ! "..British design philosophy.

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Old 1st Jun 2023, 11:12
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You missed out the delights of an intake / comp inspection where size, as they say, did matter.
I dreaded being down the Stb intake when you heard the sound of someone on the ladder.. as there was no sign you were in there.
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