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Questions about landing having run out of fuel

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Questions about landing having run out of fuel

Old 6th Apr 2023, 14:20
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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If they had literally “run out of fuel” in a Buccaneer the landing would have been courtesy of Martin Baker I can assure you. Common usage was “we ran out of fuel so we had to land at x” meaning “we had less fuel than anticipated so had to make an unplanned landing at x”
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Old 6th Apr 2023, 16:04
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ninthace
Landing at Honiton certainly would not have gone unremarked and would have made a mess of the Hight Street.
Could have worked on the by-pass!😈

Mog
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Old 6th Apr 2023, 16:09
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Originally Posted by Mogwi
Could have worked on the by-pass!😈

Mog
Was it built then? It is a fair fetch from Scarborough for something with the glide characteristics akin to a simonized brick.
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Old 6th Apr 2023, 16:47
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Spaz, That's a very old fuel system schematic, from the days when there were 8 individual tanks rather than 4 pairs of masters and slaves. I think that probably only applied to some of the early development batch aircraft. Even so, failure of a single jettison valve to close should only lose half the fuel in the aircraft at most. I suspect there is more to the cause of the accident than is apparent from the summary reports.

In the 1970's we modified a Buccaneer to carry out Foxhunter radar trials and fitted a fuel recirculation system which took fuel from the jettison lines through a heat exchanger and back into the refuel gallery to cool the radar. I think the aircraft was XX897 and we knew it as the RRE Buccaneer. I did all the calculations on flow rates, pressure drops and temperature effects and a colleague of mine, Eric Lewis defined the fuel system mods and controls. Our boss at the time was a chap called Ray Gadd who had been a Halifax gunner during WW2 and was shot down returning from a raid on Germany. They ran out of accessible fuel, i.e. there was still sufficient fuel in the aircraft to reach the UK but it was not accessible to the engines that were still running. As a result the whole crew parachuted into the channel and were captured and spent the rest of the war as POW. (the actor Denholm Elliott was also part of the crew) Ray had been involved in Buccaneer flight systems design from day 1 and as a result of his experience in the Halifax, was fiercely protective of the fuel system redundancy and fault tolerance. Eric and I spent a very long time in discussions with Ray before we persuaded him that he could sign off the mod on behalf of Mechanical Systems. Mike Brooke describes his experiences operating XX897 in his book Trials and Errors.
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Old 6th Apr 2023, 18:10
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Originally Posted by xenolith
Many years ago, didn't a Puma pilot land very quietly on a parade square in Portugal having run out of fuel? When I say quietly, I believe that the navigator crewman made some noise about it.
Was that when the attendees on the square were treated not only to the unexpected arrival of a Puma but also the epilogue featuring chasies across the square with said crash axe?

Last edited by Dunhovrin; 6th Apr 2023 at 18:29.
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 08:02
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Buccaneer Strike [AIR PICTORIAL 1980] Report and photos by MALCOLM ENGLISH
“...Having previously switched the radar set back to standby, my final task before we joined the Honington circuit was to select the bomb-bay fuel transfer switch ''off''.

Approaching Honington in arrow formation, we "broke'' over the airfield to join the downwind leg of the circuit for our landing. On ''downwind'' [S/Ldr] Bob [Joy] [No.208 Sqdn RAF Honington] lowered the undercarriage, selected tailplane and wing ''blow" and the wing flaps, aileron droop and tailplane flaps. As we turned on to approach, Bob used airbrakes to reduce our airspeed while holding our angle of attack at 20 units. I could clearly hear the audio signal from the airstream direction detector system (ADD) as we flew down the approach path.

Befitting his No. 809 Squadron (ex H.M.S. Ark Royal) experience, Bob carried out a no-flare touch-down, at 1720 hours, which was surprisingly less violent than I had anticipated. As Bob lowered the nosewheel on to the runway, the Buccaneer adopted a nose-down attitude which felt strange after flying for so long in a nominally level attitude....”
http://www.naval8-208-association.co...ial%201980.pdf (5Mb)
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 09:14
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It should be noted that 20 units ADD does not mean 20 AoA!
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 10:53
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I would hesitate to believe any utterance of the late and unlamented Savile, but Buccaneers don't glide very well. Bucc on test flight from RNAY Sydenham ran out of fuel when downwind as a result of fuel dump valve sticking open after test over Irish Sea. Pilot was my friend Lt Cdr Giles Blundell who told me that he had hopes of making it into the grassy areas of Orangefield Park half a mile beyond but when the nose pitched up observer Ricky Allen ejected, closely followed by Giles, finally the Bucc which performed a vertical landing atop the front wall of an office no more than 250m beyond. Fortunately no fuel=no fire and nobody was injured except Giles, whose elbow was shattered when his chute slid off a rooftop, and Ricky had serious back injuries.
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 18:16
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Originally Posted by Geriaviator
I would hesitate to believe any utterance of the late and unlamented Savile, but Buccaneers don't glide very well. Bucc on test flight from RNAY Sydenham ran out of fuel when downwind as a result of fuel dump valve sticking open after test over Irish Sea. Pilot was my friend Lt Cdr Giles Blundell who told me that he had hopes of making it into the grassy areas of Orangefield Park half a mile beyond but when the nose pitched up observer Ricky Allen ejected, closely followed by Giles, finally the Bucc which performed a vertical landing atop the front wall of an office no more than 250m beyond. Fortunately no fuel=no fire and nobody was injured except Giles, whose elbow was shattered when his chute slid off a rooftop, and Ricky had serious back injuries.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55097

Well, I've learned something - the term RNAY (Royal Navy Air Yard) - when was this replaced by RNAS?
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 19:00
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Originally Posted by chevvron
Nearest RAF airfield to Scarborough would have been Leconfield which closed in 1977.
Driffield was closer, but closed about the same time. Carnaby would have been a contender but for the lines of Lada products on the tarnac.
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 19:56
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Originally Posted by 212man
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/55097

Well, I've learned something - the term RNAY (Royal Navy Air Yard) - when was this replaced by RNAS?
RNAY = maintenance base. RNAS = operational station. (cf "dockyard" and "port").

Regardless of the flying qualities of the Banana Jet, I think it should be obvious by now that the ramblings of Jimmy Saville, as quoted by Davies, are a mix of misunderstanding, delusion, fabrication and self-aggrandisement.

It may be worthwhile adding some context for our colonial correspondents who may not be fully familiar with Mr Saville. In his lifetime he was a radio and TV personality, DJ and philanthropist who devoted his off-duty hours to unpaid charity and voluntary work in hospitals and children's homes. He fronted a long-running TV show which granted wishes to young people and his madcap personality endeared him to the public. He was widely regarded as a national treasure and his apparent generosity was repaid in spades by the public; presumably accounting for his Buccaneer experience.

In the weeks following his death it quickly became apparent that he was actually a predatory serial-paedophile who used his position of trust to abuse vulnerable young people who were under the legal or de-facto guardianship of hospitals, media organisations and children's homes. The extent to which these organisations were transfixed by his Svengali-like persona, and granted him almost unbridled access, has been a cause for much subsequent soul-searching, and reviews of their governance.
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Old 7th Apr 2023, 20:08
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by walbut
Spaz, That's a very old fuel system schematic, from the days when there were 8 individual tanks rather than 4 pairs of masters and slaves. I think that probably only applied to some of the early development batch aircraft. Even so, failure of a single jettison valve to close should only lose half the fuel in the aircraft at most. I suspect there is more to the cause of the accident than is apparent from the summary reports.

In the 1970's we modified a Buccaneer to carry out Foxhunter radar trials and fitted a fuel recirculation system which took fuel from the jettison lines through a heat exchanger and back into the refuel gallery to cool the radar. I think the aircraft was XX897 and we knew it as the RRE Buccaneer. I did all the calculations on flow rates, pressure drops and temperature effects and a colleague of mine, Eric Lewis defined the fuel system mods and controls. Our boss at the time was a chap called Ray Gadd who had been a Halifax gunner during WW2 and was shot down returning from a raid on Germany. They ran out of accessible fuel, i.e. there was still sufficient fuel in the aircraft to reach the UK but it was not accessible to the engines that were still running. As a result the whole crew parachuted into the channel and were captured and spent the rest of the war as POW. (the actor Denholm Elliott was also part of the crew) Ray had been involved in Buccaneer flight systems design from day 1 and as a result of his experience in the Halifax, was fiercely protective of the fuel system redundancy and fault tolerance. Eric and I spent a very long time in discussions with Ray before we persuaded him that he could sign off the mod on behalf of Mechanical Systems. Mike Brooke describes his experiences operating XX897 in his book Trials and Errors.
Id like to congratulate you on a wonderful post. I was neither aircrew nor engineer and the finer points of aircraft fuel systems are lost on me, but your post is so well written that I feel Ive been both informed and entertained. PPRuNe gold!
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Old 8th Apr 2023, 08:19
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown
Id like to congratulate you on a wonderful post. I was neither aircrew nor engineer and the finer points of aircraft fuel systems are lost on me, but your post is so well written that I feel Ive been both informed and entertained. PPRuNe gold!
Gosh, I am almost lost for words, thanks very much Video Mixdown.
Most of my posts on here are just musings from a lifetime of working as a systems engineer on military aircraft. I am slowly writing my memoirs of 42 years in Systems Engineering at Brough and the odd detachment elsewhere - shall I put your name down for a copy?
PS I still think there is more to the XV339 accident than a single jettison valve failure.
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