Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

RAF Rivet joint and the SU-27s

Wikiposts
Search
Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

RAF Rivet joint and the SU-27s

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 22nd Oct 2022, 23:37
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Fife
Posts: 271
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Su24....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015...u-24_shootdown
Coochycool is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 00:08
  #42 (permalink)  
fdr
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: 3rd Rock, #29B
Posts: 2,956
Received 861 Likes on 257 Posts
Originally Posted by Ohrly
Well then:

Article 6 1

For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
  • on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
  • on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any otherarea in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Is that the get out clause? Is the Black Sea included or not?
Not over international waters of the Black Sea, outside of territorial waters of NATO states, however, the state can take self-defense actions as they see fit...
fdr is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 00:16
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 2,319
Received 24 Likes on 16 Posts
Yes - I think the use of the word release was quite deliberate.
Not fired.
tartare is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 09:13
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The South
Posts: 305
Received 55 Likes on 22 Posts
Russian aircraft shot dwn

Originally Posted by Coochycool
Yes that's the one. My point being that being hard nosed with Russia pays better than being concerned about consequences. Putin & Erdogan get on all the better for it.
Timmy Tomkins is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 09:20
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In a van down by the river
Posts: 706
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Just my uninformed opinion, but for me this was quite deliberate and very much in keeping with an increasingly desperate Russia. Use something big and obvious like a smoky old R-27 which has already seen use by both sides in the conflict and make sure you fire it at a safe distance from the RJ and just launch it in boresight mode so it can’t track. Knowing that all these Forte/RJ/ Global Hawk flights are quite probably providing real-time tactical targeting data to the Ukrainians with which to attack Russian ground assets must be a bitter pill to swallow.

In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour
Fonsini is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 11:21
  #46 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 17,418
Received 1,593 Likes on 730 Posts
Crazy helmet camera footage showing a Russian Su-25 pilot ejecting. From the Russian Fighter Bomber Telegram channel.


ORAC is online now  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 16:11
  #47 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 12 Likes on 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Fonsini
Just my uninformed opinion, but for me this was quite deliberate and very much in keeping with an increasingly desperate Russia. Use something big and obvious like a smoky old R-27 which has already seen use by both sides in the conflict and make sure you fire it at a safe distance from the RJ and just launch it in boresight mode so it can’t track. Knowing that all these Forte/RJ/ Global Hawk flights are quite probably providing real-time tactical targeting data to the Ukrainians with which to attack Russian ground assets must be a bitter pill to swallow.

In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour
The question therefore has to be "Why". Why would the Americans sabotage a pipeline feeding friendly countries?
I can't think of any valid reason why. Even the idea that America would be trying to push its own oil reserves seems ludicrous to me.
America stands to lose a lot more by doing so if discovered than anything it could gain.
uxb99 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 18:37
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
Before the RJ had fighter support what would be it's reaction to a targeted missile? Presumably it has some form of air defence?
"Combat tactics, Mr. Ryan. By turning into the torpedo missile, the Captain closed the distance before it could arm itself."
ninja-lewis is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 18:58
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 3,279
Received 681 Likes on 244 Posts
Originally Posted by ninja-lewis
"Combat tactics, Mr. Ryan. By turning into the torpedo missile, the Captain closed the distance before it could arm itself."
UXB99

PM me your postal address and I will send you full specification of defensive suite, drawings, and aircrew notes, plus ROE

NOT

The less we know, the safer the missions will be.
langleybaston is online now  
Old 23rd Oct 2022, 22:54
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 64
Posts: 7,204
Received 401 Likes on 248 Posts
Originally Posted by Fonsini
In other news the allegations of the US being responsible for the Nordstream pipeline sabotage seem to be gathering steam, reports of US Seahawk radar tracks directly over the damage site prior to the incident and the Swedes being reticent about releasing their investigation findings are adding fuel to the fire.

Just a rumour
Regarding what you just perpetuated / repeated...
It is a tale. Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
I thank The Bard for that.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 10:17
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Exeter
Age: 61
Posts: 75
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by uxb99
The question therefore has to be "Why". Why would the Americans sabotage a pipeline feeding friendly countries?
I can't think of any valid reason why. Even the idea that America would be trying to push its own oil reserves seems ludicrous to me.
America stands to lose a lot more by doing so if discovered than anything it could gain.
Because America has long wanted to be supplying Europe with more Oil/Gas etc, take out the competitions supply line and then your customers come to you as a supplier. Biden said back along that Nordstream 2 would be stopped.
N.HEALD is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 10:26
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: australia
Posts: 394
Received 28 Likes on 17 Posts
They have their hegemony to protect.
golder is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 10:53
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 169
Received 34 Likes on 19 Posts
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
golfbananajam is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 11:09
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: London
Posts: 628
Received 193 Likes on 108 Posts
Originally Posted by golfbananajam
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Maybe the sensors look sideways?
pasta is online now  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 11:29
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Cumbria
Posts: 366
Received 161 Likes on 50 Posts
Originally Posted by golfbananajam
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?
DuncanDoenitz is online now  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 11:48
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 772
Received 562 Likes on 204 Posts
Originally Posted by golfbananajam
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
Simple answer - there is a reason but it's none of your business.
Video Mixdown is online now  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 12:30
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Age: 67
Posts: 169
Received 34 Likes on 19 Posts
Originally Posted by DuncanDoenitz
Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?
Thanks
golfbananajam is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 12:53
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glorious Devon
Posts: 2,693
Received 902 Likes on 527 Posts
Originally Posted by DuncanDoenitz
Turns are always made with the flight crew facing the perceived threat? And least exposure of the IR signature?
Hard to be sure from the current picture, but it looks turns are being made with the stern to the threat. Looking at call sign JAKE11.
YANK02 (200 Suoer King Air) seems to be doing the same.
Ninthace is online now  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 13:06
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Scotland
Age: 43
Posts: 124
Received 14 Likes on 6 Posts
Originally Posted by golfbananajam
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
It isn't unique to rivet joints or even western surveillance/ AWACS aircraft; I believe that mainstays fly the same pattern. I don't know, but would guess that it is just straightforward geometry. f you assume that they are operating relative to a fixed baseline that is constrained by a perceived threat or a national border and want to spend most of their time in straight and level flight then a fig8 minimises the mean deviation from that baseline relative to an oval. Also, an oval would mean much longer intervals when the maximum range of the aircrafts surveillance capability was not being used.

Recc is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2022, 13:16
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes on 16 Posts
Originally Posted by golfbananajam
For my education, is there any reason that Rivet Joint flies a stretched figure 8 pattern rather than an oval (https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae01d0)?
From a personal perspective, I'd rather specific information regarding any military operations, especially that regarding an a/c my younger brother flies, weren't speculated upon.

Just sate yourself with the knowledge that those who need to know why they operate the way they do are well aware of why, whilst those who don't need to know are justifiably kept in the dark.

Thank you.
The Helpful Stacker is offline  
The following users liked this post:


Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.