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RAF QFI Instructor Grades

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RAF QFI Instructor Grades

Old 3rd Sep 2022, 23:54
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I think we also have C2 & C1 status awarded to the guys who are aren't proper QFIs but are experienced on their own type!

Usually found on the front-line or OCUs, they are very good at showing you that you’re not very good, but no ability to show you how to actually do it right! 😀
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 00:28
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CFS A1 and A2 cats became totally irrelevant when I saw a non commissioned instructor totally balls up a lesson on Dominie electrics in front of a checking CFS…to a point where the students were re-taught by another instructor.
Normally you’d expect said instructor to be held back a year.
In this case bar politics came into place and the instructor was re-checked on an easy lesson. A2 achieved, A2 worthless.
The new A2 instructor was subsequently removed from instructional duties for all the wrong reasons in 2010ish, for all the reasons CAS is on fire.
A2 became worthless the day CFS guy gave his Special Fwend an A2. Same story today, about the A2 ‘Fwend’ would more than satisfy any newspaper to put the next nail in.
A B2 qualification became the same as an A1 instructional qualification that day; let’s not talk nonsense about an impartial and acceptable training system, it was rancid back then, and there’s no evidence it has changed.

Last edited by popeye107; 4th Sep 2022 at 00:52.
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 09:23
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Originally Posted by popeye107 View Post
CFS A1 and A2 cats became totally irrelevant when I saw a non commissioned instructor totally balls up a lesson on Dominie electrics in front of a checking CFS…to a point where the students were re-taught by another instructor.
Normally you’d expect said instructor to be held back a year.
In this case bar politics came into place and the instructor was re-checked on an easy lesson. A2 achieved, A2 worthless.
The new A2 instructor was subsequently removed from instructional duties for all the wrong reasons in 2010ish, for all the reasons CAS is on fire.
A2 became worthless the day CFS guy gave his Special Fwend an A2. Same story today, about the A2 ‘Fwend’ would more than satisfy any newspaper to put the next nail in.
A B2 qualification became the same as an A1 instructional qualification that day; let’s not talk nonsense about an impartial and acceptable training system, it was rancid back then, and there’s no evidence it has changed.
No, it devalued or made worthless the categories awarded by a single NCO examiner, not the entire CFS system. If the NCO aircrew training system was indeed rancid at the time, that was a problem induced by those in it, perhaps a bit of cultural drift driven by the few rather than the many?

When I did my own A2 QFI upgrade there was a process that lead to a recommendation you were suitable to upgrade before you got anywhere near an examiner. There were 4 separate elements required for an A2; you had to be assessed as Above Average for pure flying skills, ground (ie professional) knowledge and, crucially, your ability to instruct in both domains. Failure to clear any one of those 4 bars meant no upgrade.

Any system that recognises and uses categorisation of professional skills and competences relies on the integrity of the people making those judgments. That means putting good people into the training regime in the first place, otherwise overall standards start to slip.


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Old 4th Sep 2022, 10:53
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Originally Posted by Fanor View Post
QFI instructor
That sounds a bit like "PIN number"
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 16:41
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[QUOTE=popeye107;11290418]CFS A1 and A2 cats became totally irrelevant when I saw a non commissioned instructor totally balls up a lesson on Dominie electrics in front of a checking CFS…to a point where the students were re-taught by another instructor.

Blimey, what was complicated about Dominie electrics?

Used to love those afternoon Dominie sorties where after a heavy mess lunch,the pilot in the LHS fell asleep shortly after take off and the NCO Eng/AEOp instructor flew it through the London TMA.
Good job there were a few Navs in the back keeping it the right way up and someone hammering out submarine sightings on the Morse key.
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 23:01
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Originally Posted by Thud_and_Blunder View Post
There was also the massive kudos (yeah, right... ) of having 'cfs' after your name in the Air Force List for A2, and 'CFS' for A1.
Hmmm, I feel sure that at the time I did my QFI flying on the Bulldog it was 'cfs' for A2, and 'cfs*' for A1 (both designations in lower case).

These RAF QFI designations, and many others, were explained in the RAF List, at the time.
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 23:02
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Originally Posted by Thud_and_Blunder View Post
There was also the massive kudos (yeah, right... ) of having 'cfs' after your name in the Air Force List for A2, and 'CFS' for A1.
Hmmm, I feel sure that at the time I did my QFI flying on the Bulldog it was 'cfs' for A2, and 'cfs*' for A1 (both designations in lower case).

These RAF QFI designations, and many others, were explained in the RAF List, at the time.
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Old 4th Sep 2022, 23:18
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MrB: Just checked with my copy of the 1996 List and you are right - lower case for both designations, correctly explained for A1 and A2. (There were also similar abbreviations for Crewmen and Nav Instructors with a CFS category - cfs(c) and cfs(n), both with asterisk versions.)
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 00:17
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And if you think that is complicated see the enormous list of qualifications decoded in the August 1914 [Great War] Army List.
On and on and on .........
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 06:43
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Originally Posted by ICM View Post
MrB: Just checked with my copy of the 1996 List and you are right - lower case for both designations, correctly explained for A1 and A2. (There were also similar abbreviations for Crewmen and Nav Instructors with a CFS category - cfs(c) and cfs(n), both with asterisk versions.)
What did the asterisk mean in 1996, years after I left?
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 07:29
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
What did the asterisk mean in 1996, years after I left?
cfs* = A1.

The cfs tag has no real meaning outside MOD and is not supposed to be used as a post-nominal even when serving, though some people think adding it to their LinkedIn profile will help them.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 09:41
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Indeed the rotary world was a much more self help case, but I am talking about the 80’s. However, this did reflect the environment we worked in at the time. EG single pilot Puma detachments: self auth, own servicing whilst having a grand time around mainland Europe.

Did my initial A2 on the Gazelle at Shawbury where 3 of us, successfully ganged together to study and self brief prior to examination.

Back to the Puma, C to I (as above) with an A2 check. Further standards check (all self study) recommended testing for A1. Dates booked (on the Sqn), but a little adventure called the Gulf War intervened.

Never did upgrade. My next posting was as a Flt Cdr on the C130….

Me
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 10:35
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There was also the massive kudos (yeah, right... ) of having 'cfs' after your name in the Air Force List for A2, and 'CFS' for A1.
Plus the 'silver' Pelican ! ... a bit grubby after 50 + years !

Last edited by Cornish Jack; 5th Sep 2022 at 10:55.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 12:44
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At Valley in the early 80s, it was rare, but not impossible, to achieve B1 on graduating from the CFS course, thereby skipping B2. Not sure on other aircraft.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 13:00
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Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post
cfs* = A1.

The cfs tag has no real meaning outside MOD and is not supposed to be used as a post-nominal even when serving, though some people think adding it to their LinkedIn profile will help them.
Thank you. I seem to recall that in the past it meant CFS staff.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 14:40
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Thanks for the corrections - as you can probably tell, I never did look at the Air Force List and obvs misunderstood what the very nice man from Exam Wing said at the end of the debrief
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 17:12
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Slight digression if I may be permitted.

What were the Ground School Instructors' gradings after Ground Instructor Training Course?

I did mine [to teach Met] c. 1970, cannot remember where [Newton? Upwood?] and found it superb ....... later in career I was a senior instructor at the Met Office College, Shinfield Park, and realised how well my brief GIT had prepared me, in contrast to other instructors who were, shall we say, not "teachers" but "lecturers". There is a difference!

I think I was a humble B, and a few Met folk held an A? We were checked by trappers fairly often.

Signed OLD GIT.
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Old 5th Sep 2022, 21:35
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Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
Slight digression if I may be permitted.

What were the Ground School Instructors' gradings after Ground Instructor Training Course?

I did mine [to teach Met] c. 1970, cannot remember where [Newton? Upwood?] and found it superb ....... later in career I was a senior instructor at the Met Office College, Shinfield Park, and realised how well my brief GIT had prepared me, in contrast to other instructors who were, shall we say, not "teachers" but "lecturers". There is a difference!

I think I was a humble B, and a few Met folk held an A? We were checked by trappers fairly often.

Signed OLD GIT.
From memory (not necessarily to be recommended !), the Upwood GIT award was a B, on completion..
As you say, an excellent course, apart from lack of magnetic strip with resultant self-mobilising aircraft !
A tale remaining in memory from that course was regarding one of their previous instructors (Charles ?) who was (apparently) possessed of the most magnificent speaking voice - such that he (after much pleading) agreed to read the lesson at Sunday Evensong. Sizeable congregation and Charles , in resonant baritone, held forth on the marked passage "... and Jesus said to the assembled multitude ...", at which point he paused, cast an imperious gaze across the listeners, and continued ... " andf I must say, I entirely agree with Him..."
He was not asked for a return engagement !!
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Old 6th Sep 2022, 06:59
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The “mil symbols” of cfs and cfs* still exist and are used on JPA to identify A2 and A1 instructors - QFI, QHI, QMAI, QTI, etc…
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Old 6th Sep 2022, 08:49
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At Valley in the early 80s, it was rare, but not impossible, to achieve B1 on graduating from the CFS course, thereby skipping B2. Not sure on other aircraft.
That has always been possible on both rotary and fixed wing but you have to pass the QFI/QHI course with an Above Average assessment. I know a few talented gits who left the QHI course as B1s.

Shawbury was the place to do your A2 because the support system from Internal Standards was there to help assess you and improve your flying and knowledge - you still had to do a lot of personal study though. It required you to stay at Shawbury after your QHI course which happened for quite a few unless the front line units wanted people back straight away.

The AAC had no such systems but I don't know what the RN had at Culdrose.
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