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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Old 6th Feb 2022, 22:17
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Hi Timelord,

For no reason I can fathom (I'm a newbie?), PPRuNe is allowing me to have just 1 message on the system, and that's for my inbox, outbox, etc. As I had sent you 1 message, I received an email saying it had refused to accept your 1 message to me. Very helpful.

Would you mind, therefore, emailing me directly with your original message, please? My address is [email protected] or on Twitter @IllsleyMatthew

I apologise for the inconvenience.

Kind regards,

Matthew
e mailed Dr Clarke, info you.
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Old 6th Feb 2022, 22:24
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I saw this picture, it was sent to RAF Pitreavie Castle where the picture was given to the Int Cell, we never saw the picture again years later I thought it was an F117 with 2 Harriers.
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Old 6th Feb 2022, 23:15
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KPax

That would make more sense. The Gulf War was just starting with the invasion of Kuwait 2 days prior. The F117 hadn’t broken cover then even though the RAF had flown it several times prior. Sqn Ldr Graham Wardell was on the programme and is listed as BANDIT 282 here: F-117 pilots - Bandit Numbers

Sadly, I saw Graham perish executing a loaded roll at an Airshow in Slovakia several years later.

So, the most likely explanation is that a F117 came over and was being escorted in the low flying system by a Harrier (possibly a non-RAF one from the USMC or maybe even BAe? Wardell worked for BAe shortly afterwards). That might by why the file is locked away as it may be linked to a US UK ‘special arrangement memoranda. I know that the RAF considered buying into the Nighthawk Programme.

So no little green men to be seen in all likelihood!

Also, the “Poachers” reported seeing the aircraft go straight up and out of sight. Seeing as it was reportedly low cloud then a weather abort upwards will look like that to the untrained eye.

I should say that I saw with my own eyes the RQ-170 Sentinel well before it became popular knowledge - I had to give my eyes a rub to ensure my eyes weren’t tricking me. For a while after it was subject to much speculation as “The Beast of Kandahar”, but even then it was forbidden to talk about it. There were pictures adorning walls for some time and spotters websites speculated constantly about it. There are aircraft that fly under a cloak of secrecy for many years like F117 and RQ-170, and so it wouldn’t surprise me at all that this is what happened back in Aug 1990.
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Old 6th Feb 2022, 23:23
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I have no idea if the picture was genuine, but it wasn’t an F117.
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Old 6th Feb 2022, 23:50
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May have been a HAVE BLUE development? Or a version of the so-called “hopeless diamond” of which there is no acknowledgement nor photographs? I still think this is far more likely than an episode of Mulder and Skully!




Lockheed Martin did patent a design of it


First filed in 1979: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5250950A/en

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Old 7th Feb 2022, 07:15
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Originally Posted by Lima Juliet View Post
May have been a HAVE BLUE development? Or a version of the so-called “hopeless diamond” of which there is no acknowledgement nor photographs? I still think this is far more likely than an episode of Mulder and Skully!
Hello,

I also thought this was a likely answer, so I spoke to James C. Goodall about it (I'm not allowed to post URLs, but more is available about him online).

He told me that, 'The two Have Blue technology demonstrators and Senior Prom were never flown outside of the Nellis range. Not sure what [is in the photo], but it wasn’t a Skunk Works aircraft.'

As he is also a recognised expert on the F-117 (according to what it says online), that only added to the mystery.

He suggested it may have been a British-made stealth prototype, or it might have been a stealth variant from another US works, although again, he pointed out that there's no real evidence any such craft were made.

If the Hopeless Diamond thus ever flew real missions, or even came into British airspace, it's one really well-kept secret.


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Old 7th Feb 2022, 10:11
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Dunno about the mystery shape in the photo, but the chase aircraft looks more like a Hunter to my eye.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 10:33
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Patent

Just as another point of potential interest, the diamond-shaped craft shown in file DEFE-31-180-1 appears to possibly have a blunt right-hand end. This could, of course, be many things, but...

It's often derided as being akin to the "blueprint for the Millennium Falcon", but in Salvatore Pais's U.S. Navy patent US10144532B2, the diamond-shaped craft that's depicted there has, 'a frustum or cone on its leading portion of its main body... the frustum is rotatable about its own axis or has the ability to rotate.'

Again, I can't post URLs or images ( ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 10:53
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Just as another point of potential interest, the diamond-shaped craft shown in file DEFE-31-180-1 appears to possibly have a blunt right-hand end. This could, of course, be many things, but...

It's often derided as being akin to the "blueprint for the Millennium Falcon", but in Salvatore Pais's U.S. Navy patent US10144532B2, the diamond-shaped craft that's depicted there has, 'a frustum or cone on its leading portion of its main body... the frustum is rotatable about its own axis or has the ability to rotate.'

Again, I can't post URLs or images ( ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.
More likely to be a bad butcher or mask of a photo of a 117 that has then been stretched slightly.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 10:56
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Again, I can't post URLs or images ( ) but searching online for US10144532B2 will bring it up if anyone is interested.
Once you've reached the magic 10 posts you should be able to post images and PM people...

Interesting discussion, love to see the original photos were it possible.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 11:01
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Matthew - I'm intrigued to know about the purpose of this research. Is this a part of Dr Clark's primary research effort?

Aurora is interesting as, although its existence has been repeatedly denied, it was explicitly referred to in an edition of the Pentagon's 'Soviet Military Power' back in the day, the publication in question being hastily withdrawn at its launch event when one of the bigwigs spotted the oversight (this story was recounted in Flight International at the time). Of course, its mention could have been some elaborate disinformation scheme.

There was also a story circulating about a mishap at Boscombe Down, I believe in the early/mid-90s, the Americans turning up in force with screens to prevent spotters prying with their long lenses.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 11:14
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According to Ben Rich, "Aurora" was the DoD's code name for B-2 development funding... true/untrue?
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 11:34
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LOMCEVAC was there that day and is adamant that it's all over active imaginations.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 11:58
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Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
According to Ben Rich
How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 13:00
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Matthew - I'm intrigued to know about the purpose of this research. Is this a part of Dr Clark's primary research effort?

Aurora is interesting as, although its existence has been repeatedly denied, it was explicitly referred to in an edition of the Pentagon's 'Soviet Military Power' back in the day, the publication in question being hastily withdrawn at its launch event when one of the bigwigs spotted the oversight (this story was recounted in Flight International at the time). Of course, its mention could have been some elaborate disinformation scheme.

There was also a story circulating about a mishap at Boscombe Down, I believe in the early/mid-90s, the Americans turning up in force with screens to prevent spotters prying with their long lenses.
Hello. I've messaged you via PPRuNe. Thanks
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 15:27
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A blimp is what comes to mind. Stationary mid air, leaves vertically. Climb speed probably exaggerated, but one could look at how the Good Year blimp zoom climbs, it is surprisingly good. There was serious airship development in the UK up until early 90's when Aerospace Developments/Airship Industries failed.

Noteworthy is that in the 80's there was development of lenticular airships in the UK by Thermo Skyships which acquired AD and formed Aerospace Skyships.

Thene there are the hybrid airships that combine airplanes and airships.

I've no evidence what is in the original picture nor if it is legit, but also I've no idea what is the attitude of the diamond shape object in the grainy picture. It could by all means be eg Aereon 26 from a certain angle (it is not, but I'm trying to make a point here).

Knowing that eyewitnesses are unreliable and that the good quality original pictures are not available and that the related documents have been classified for further 50 years well until 2070's, someone knows what it is, and I believe it is terrestial. A blimp fits the general description of maneuvers, rigid airship may fit the shape on the picture and classifying fits the military design purpose.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 16:11
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I have no idea if the picture was genuine, but it wasn’t a blimp.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 17:12
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley View Post
Well, I would be more than happy to hear from you if you were in some way involved and know otherwise, but on this point we have a senior former defence intelligence source who interviewed the witnesses at the time, and we're only repeating what he says they were doing. They initially told the RAF they were out walking, but who takes a camera out on a walk at 8.30pm?
In that part of Scotland at that time of the year it's not going to get dark until well after 10PM.

On the grainy picture, it's hard to say what the aircraft is - could be a Harrier, could be a Hunter or even a Phantom (Both of the latter based in Scotland at the time). I doubt it's a USMC aircraft - as others have said, these would have been spotted and logged. It could have been a BAE or AAEE aircraft. Both GR3s and the Development GR5s did operate out of West Freugh in the late 80s/early 90s and that would seem a much more likely location than Macrahannish. (For some reason everything sneaky beaky in Scotland seems to be linked to Mac, when West Freugh was a much more secret place).It's also more likely for a Saturday flight than 'regular' RAF or RN

It's probably too early, but BAE did test some 'stealth' shapes via sub-scale remote control/UAV aircraft
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 17:24
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Originally Posted by KPax View Post
I saw this picture, it was sent to RAF Pitreavie Castle where the picture was given to the Int Cell, we never saw the picture again years later I thought it was an F117 with 2 Harriers.
Ex Pitreavie Int here. We did have a dark red file on this general topic but it contained nothing that persuaded me we were having ET visitors.
Also later worked in the next office to Nick Pope and same applies.
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Old 7th Feb 2022, 18:15
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As in any investigation, the provenance of any evidence submitted has to be established before furthering for any evaluated consideration.....

I don't see that here......
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