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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Old 6th Mar 2023, 12:33
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The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
Originally Posted by NutLoose
The picture in the Daily Record link is a lot more clearer. Surely if Aliens were going to visit the World they would choose an area with more intelligent life forms.


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Old 6th Mar 2023, 12:51
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Originally Posted by NutLoose
The picture in the Daily Record link is a lot more clearer. Surely if Aliens were going to visit the World they would choose an area with more intelligent life forms.


Considering that Scotland voted 62% in favour of remaining in the EU, that perhaps demonstrates a higher intelligence

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Old 6th Mar 2023, 13:13
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
Are you saying that the picture we are currently looking at has been doctored? If so, surely all bets are off,
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 13:17
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No, not at all.

The image above is fictional. It came from Nick Pope talking to an artist about his memory of the real Calvine photo he said he saw posted to the wall in the Sec AS office in London in the early 1990s.

The real photo is the one the Daily Record sent to Craig Lindsay when he was the RAF Press Officer for Scotland and Northern Ireland. That's available in many places, e.g. https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/2022/08/...-ufo-revealed/

Cheers

Originally Posted by Ninthace
Are you saying that the picture we are currently looking at has been doctored? If so, surely all bets are off,
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 14:31
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
Hello
Previously, it was explained to me by people with RAF experience that military contractors like BAe sometimes used Hunters as in-flight camera platforms during tests of new vehicles.

It's now doing the rounds that BAe had its own Harriers. Does anyone have any knowledge to support or contradict that claim, please?

Thank you.
The first three Harrier GR5/7s (ZD318, ZD319 and ZD320) remained with BAE as test/trials airframes throughout the life of the Harrier II, although they were never owned by BAE
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 14:32
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Thank you very much.

Originally Posted by Davef68
The first three Harrier GR5/7s (ZD318, ZD319 and ZD320) remained with BAE as test/trials airframes throughout the life of the Harrier II, although they were never owned by BAE
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 14:32
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
This is the one I see

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...-hold-29380068





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Old 6th Mar 2023, 14:34
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Yes, this one below is the real, untouched one that Craig Lindsay was sent and kept for 32 years. No one's ever altered it.

Cheers
Originally Posted by Davef68
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 14:34
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
Thank you very much.
Should have said they did swap back and forward with AAEE/DERA etc during that time
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 20:34
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Originally Posted by Davef68
That is not the same picture as posted higher up, The ac is in a different position and the terrain is different.
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 21:33
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I recall seeing an airship that shape. However, at the time it was speared on its mooring mast LOL
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Old 6th Mar 2023, 22:18
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It does make you wonder if the late 1970s Thermo-Skyship technology was taken further under wraps. This is the open-source version that flew at Cardington:


More details in this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...compressed.pdf

This was the claim at the time in the late 70s as it was being developed:
A major European car ferry operator financed the development of the British Thermo-Skyship, a saucer-shaped airship using helium and super-heated air for lift and ducted thrust from turbofan engines for vertical take-off and landing and for cruise flight. A 9.14-m (30-ft) diameter model of the ship has flown, from which will be developed a Skyship car ferry capable of carrying 60 passengers and their cars from England to France at 165 kph (103 mph), and 152- and 508-tonne (150- and 500-ton) cargo-carrying saucers.
Thermo-Skyship was big news in the late ‘70s, and I remember reading about it in the aviation magazines as a very young kid. It even made a debate in the House of Lords as recorded in Hansard: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/...anAirTransport

Here is a colour still of the original flying mock-up:


This is a link to the video on YouTube:

But by the 1980s it kind of went all quiet. All too difficult and we saw some conventional airships being made a at Cardington instead. The linked article states:

Late 1982: In late 1982, a “de-merger” was agreed, and the former TSL rigid airship technical and management team left AI and formed Wren Skyships, Ltd. on the Isle of Man with Malcolm Wren serving as Managing Director. Their focus was on developing the R.30 and the RS.1 rigid, metal-clad airships. Roger Munk remained with AI and focused on developing the Skyship line of non-rigid airships.
Hmmm… “metal-clad airships”, “Isle of Man” and “demerger” of technology?

So, here is a way out theory, but probably more likely than “little green men”. Suppose that the Thermo-Skyship design and development was bought out by a British Defence consortium in 1982/3 leaving the Cardington-based company to switch to the more conventional SkyShip-500 design as seen in the 1985 Bond movie “A View To A Kill”? Suppose that the turbojet version of Thermo-Skyship was developed and built in secret? Suppose that this turbojet craft had a speed of closer to 150-200kts and the Hunter chase aircraft as shown in the photo was a T-bird with someone else operating it remotely over a fairly quiet area of Scotland? Or maybe they lost control of it and the Hunter (it still doesn’t look like a Harrier to me) was trying to regain control of it having flown out of the range at West Freugh? This technology is either now shelved or cancelled like several of the remote control craft built by British industry (Corax, Raven, Demon, HERTi, Mantis and Taranis come immediately to mind). Now, wouldn’t that make a more likely story than ET coming to visit?


Now, take a look at this:


Look at Thermo-Skyships and everything in between it and Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV). Also, look at the date of Airship-Industries being broken up - Aug 90 - 1 month before your alleged sighting. Then look at the HAV Airlander 10, that is a descendent of that Thermo-Skyship, and especially the ducted thrust unit on the tail - doesn’t it look similar to the tail-end arrangement in your 1990’s grainy photo? I also suspect the black blob on the side of the unidentified aircraft is another turbo-jet mounted on the side as per the original Thermo-Skyship design in the video to give manoeuvre and forward thrust when needed.




So, my guess is that the grainy photo above shows a highly secretive development of Thermo-Skyship, with the envisioned turbo-jets powering a more aerodynamic shape (possibly with some early stealth features) with a company test aircraft escorting it - probably a Hawker Hunter by the looks of it. I’d say that this is more plausible than some of the theories put out there…

Last edited by The B Word; 6th Mar 2023 at 23:49.
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 00:14
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An airship that can suddenly appear in a remote area without anyone seeing it transit there or move on from there? Silent turbojets? No operating base?
Not, not buying it.
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 00:20
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Why ever not, Ninthace ? Even the Russians were at it in the 90s too…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5AmHxoQJY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplan


The Thermo-Skyship also predicted a 600-900 mile range at over 100kts in its original envisaged configuration in the magazines of the day. it could also quite easily go in and out under cover of darkness. It does have a large heat signature though, but in those days the average layman didn’t have that sort of tech to see it at night without lights.

As for silent turbojets - wouldn’t the Hunter (or Harrier) have created a bit of racket, or are you suggesting they were glider variants?

Finally, the Russians also, according to this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...-converted.pdf were developing a nuke powered thermoplane that could fly for 8 years!

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Old 7th Mar 2023, 07:31
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Too big, too cumbersome, too slow and too noisy to operate unnoticed. Again, how did it go I unremarked for the rest of its sortie to and from wherever it launched, both visually and on radar? If it was a chase plane, why did not stay with it?

I still think it is a Surgeon’s photograph.
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 19:35
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Ninthace here are some answers that might fit:

1. Firstly, this is not really an airship as you would normally think of. The Thermo-Skyship (or Thermoplan) that the Russians built uses bleed air, heated to up to 1200 deg C, to supplement normal ballonettes full of helium to create a significant amount of buoyancy. Just like the Hybrid Air Vehicle Airlander, they create more lift in forward flight by the shape of the hull as a lifting body (plenty of examples of that). Vertical flight is augmented by vectored thrust by rotating the jet turbines, and as the Thermo-Skyship weighs nearly at ‘lighter than air’ then less thrust is needed for vertical lift. Once lifted it transitions to horizontal flight by a fixed engine at the rear (with thrust vectoring nozzles) and rotating the lift jets to the horizontal giving it at 150kts-200kts forward speed (or maybe more depending on the design). To generate that near to negative bouyancy in flight then the engines at close to idle may produce enough heat to keep the hot air flowing into the lifting body shape making appear to hover (as per the YouTube video above).

2. As stated, they were experimenting with rigid structures by using light-gauge alloy plating instead of normal airship farbric/rubber skins. Research it, rigid airship structures are a thing and oddly enough Thermo-Skyship and Thermoplan used such. Also, look at the shape in the 1990 photo - it is seriously faceted - the same techniques to make it low observable to radar as used on the earlier stealth aircraft of the time.

3. Look at the weather in the photo. It looks like a fairly low cloud base. So it was either flying low level beneath it - which would make it suddenly appear to an observer on the ground - or it it was flying above the cloud and had a malfunction that saw it drop, very slowly due to its partial negative bouyancy through the cloud into view. Now, the approach speed of a Hunter is around 130-135 kts, so flying around slow speed would be possible (obviously a Harrier could go slower, but if it is a Harrier it is more likely a GR3 given the timeline).

4. Where did it go after the picture? Maybe back to VMC on top? Maybe to West Freugh, maybe to BAe Warton or the Wren Skyship company had set up on Jurby on the Isle of Man from 1982 (they even built a big airship sized hangar there). At the time of the photo Jurby Army Trg Camp was still MOD and the TA used its domestic accommodation from time to time. It’s fairly quiet at Jurby on the north of the Isle of Man, so that is possible.

I agree, this could be a “Surgeon’s Photo” equivalent of Nessie, but from what I understand many poured over it for years. To me it seems more plausible that someone spotted a compartmented research aircraft on camera on that day in 1990. There are many things that still have “kept their lid on” from the Cold War (or the end of it) and the technology is certainly feasible, if only to compare it to the Russian (that started as Soviet) Thermoplan in the other video. The observer sees this object, the shock of seeing something so unusual that means their brain fills in the gaps of ‘what they want to see’, then you get a story about some UFO type thing. Brains are good at giving things to believe on recollection!






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Old 7th Mar 2023, 19:48
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You are still ignoring that this is the only time it was ever seen that day or, as far as we know any other day, It has not been seen going in an out of any of the locations you mention, ever. It was not seen en route at any point, ever. Given the transit speeds you suggest that is unlikely. A craft like that would be visible on radar, it is not that stealthy, so we have to assume they are all in on it too, both civil and military.

Finally, why on earth would a fancy airship be a black project?

Last edited by Ninthace; 7th Mar 2023 at 21:39.
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 23:02
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Because it isn’t really an airship as we know them. We also have no idea of scale in that photo.

I can recall when BAe released this photo in the early 2000s:



This is Raven. I envisaged a massive Typhoon sized aircraft. When I saw it, it had about a 4-5ft wingspan! Maybe that is why there aren’t many photos of it? It also flew at the remote Woomera range, so not many folks there to photograph it either (nor Corax, Kestrel or Demon).
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 07:41
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And yet you can provide a clear picture of it and its existence is well known as are similar projects.
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Old 8th Mar 2023, 11:38
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Ninthace . You are wasting your time I fear. (As with anything involving the unqualified and unfounded Walter Mitty assertions of individuals such as Nick Pope who was a fairly junior secreterial clerk letter response writer without any aeronautical engineering or imagery analysis background)

Last edited by Haraka; 8th Mar 2023 at 12:34.
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