Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland
Thread Starter
The Record has used the mock-up version of the Calvine image originally produced by a computer artist and Nick Pope many years ago for an article in The Sun (or a TV show on Channel 5, I forget which came first).
El G
Are you saying that the picture we are currently looking at has been doctored? If so, surely all bets are off,
Thread Starter
No, not at all.
The image above is fictional. It came from Nick Pope talking to an artist about his memory of the real Calvine photo he said he saw posted to the wall in the Sec AS office in London in the early 1990s.
The real photo is the one the Daily Record sent to Craig Lindsay when he was the RAF Press Officer for Scotland and Northern Ireland. That's available in many places, e.g. https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/2022/08/...-ufo-revealed/
Cheers
The image above is fictional. It came from Nick Pope talking to an artist about his memory of the real Calvine photo he said he saw posted to the wall in the Sec AS office in London in the early 1990s.
The real photo is the one the Daily Record sent to Craig Lindsay when he was the RAF Press Officer for Scotland and Northern Ireland. That's available in many places, e.g. https://drdavidclarke.co.uk/2022/08/...-ufo-revealed/
Cheers
Hello
Previously, it was explained to me by people with RAF experience that military contractors like BAe sometimes used Hunters as in-flight camera platforms during tests of new vehicles.
It's now doing the rounds that BAe had its own Harriers. Does anyone have any knowledge to support or contradict that claim, please?
Thank you.
Previously, it was explained to me by people with RAF experience that military contractors like BAe sometimes used Hunters as in-flight camera platforms during tests of new vehicles.
It's now doing the rounds that BAe had its own Harriers. Does anyone have any knowledge to support or contradict that claim, please?
Thank you.
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Thread Starter
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Thread Starter
Yes, this one below is the real, untouched one that Craig Lindsay was sent and kept for 32 years. No one's ever altered it.
Cheers
Cheers
It does make you wonder if the late 1970s Thermo-Skyship technology was taken further under wraps. This is the open-source version that flew at Cardington:
More details in this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...compressed.pdf
This was the claim at the time in the late 70s as it was being developed:
Thermo-Skyship was big news in the late ‘70s, and I remember reading about it in the aviation magazines as a very young kid. It even made a debate in the House of Lords as recorded in Hansard: https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/...anAirTransport
Here is a colour still of the original flying mock-up:
This is a link to the video on YouTube:
But by the 1980s it kind of went all quiet. All too difficult and we saw some conventional airships being made a at Cardington instead. The linked article states:
Hmmm… “metal-clad airships”, “Isle of Man” and “demerger” of technology?
So, here is a way out theory, but probably more likely than “little green men”. Suppose that the Thermo-Skyship design and development was bought out by a British Defence consortium in 1982/3 leaving the Cardington-based company to switch to the more conventional SkyShip-500 design as seen in the 1985 Bond movie “A View To A Kill”? Suppose that the turbojet version of Thermo-Skyship was developed and built in secret? Suppose that this turbojet craft had a speed of closer to 150-200kts and the Hunter chase aircraft as shown in the photo was a T-bird with someone else operating it remotely over a fairly quiet area of Scotland? Or maybe they lost control of it and the Hunter (it still doesn’t look like a Harrier to me) was trying to regain control of it having flown out of the range at West Freugh? This technology is either now shelved or cancelled like several of the remote control craft built by British industry (Corax, Raven, Demon, HERTi, Mantis and Taranis come immediately to mind). Now, wouldn’t that make a more likely story than ET coming to visit?
Now, take a look at this:
Look at Thermo-Skyships and everything in between it and Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV). Also, look at the date of Airship-Industries being broken up - Aug 90 - 1 month before your alleged sighting. Then look at the HAV Airlander 10, that is a descendent of that Thermo-Skyship, and especially the ducted thrust unit on the tail - doesn’t it look similar to the tail-end arrangement in your 1990’s grainy photo? I also suspect the black blob on the side of the unidentified aircraft is another turbo-jet mounted on the side as per the original Thermo-Skyship design in the video to give manoeuvre and forward thrust when needed.
So, my guess is that the grainy photo above shows a highly secretive development of Thermo-Skyship, with the envisioned turbo-jets powering a more aerodynamic shape (possibly with some early stealth features) with a company test aircraft escorting it - probably a Hawker Hunter by the looks of it. I’d say that this is more plausible than some of the theories put out there…
More details in this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...compressed.pdf
This was the claim at the time in the late 70s as it was being developed:
A major European car ferry operator financed the development of the British Thermo-Skyship, a saucer-shaped airship using helium and super-heated air for lift and ducted thrust from turbofan engines for vertical take-off and landing and for cruise flight. A 9.14-m (30-ft) diameter model of the ship has flown, from which will be developed a Skyship car ferry capable of carrying 60 passengers and their cars from England to France at 165 kph (103 mph), and 152- and 508-tonne (150- and 500-ton) cargo-carrying saucers.
Here is a colour still of the original flying mock-up:
This is a link to the video on YouTube:
But by the 1980s it kind of went all quiet. All too difficult and we saw some conventional airships being made a at Cardington instead. The linked article states:
Late 1982: In late 1982, a “de-merger” was agreed, and the former TSL rigid airship technical and management team left AI and formed Wren Skyships, Ltd. on the Isle of Man with Malcolm Wren serving as Managing Director. Their focus was on developing the R.30 and the RS.1 rigid, metal-clad airships. Roger Munk remained with AI and focused on developing the Skyship line of non-rigid airships.
So, here is a way out theory, but probably more likely than “little green men”. Suppose that the Thermo-Skyship design and development was bought out by a British Defence consortium in 1982/3 leaving the Cardington-based company to switch to the more conventional SkyShip-500 design as seen in the 1985 Bond movie “A View To A Kill”? Suppose that the turbojet version of Thermo-Skyship was developed and built in secret? Suppose that this turbojet craft had a speed of closer to 150-200kts and the Hunter chase aircraft as shown in the photo was a T-bird with someone else operating it remotely over a fairly quiet area of Scotland? Or maybe they lost control of it and the Hunter (it still doesn’t look like a Harrier to me) was trying to regain control of it having flown out of the range at West Freugh? This technology is either now shelved or cancelled like several of the remote control craft built by British industry (Corax, Raven, Demon, HERTi, Mantis and Taranis come immediately to mind). Now, wouldn’t that make a more likely story than ET coming to visit?
Now, take a look at this:
Look at Thermo-Skyships and everything in between it and Hybrid Air Vehicles (HAV). Also, look at the date of Airship-Industries being broken up - Aug 90 - 1 month before your alleged sighting. Then look at the HAV Airlander 10, that is a descendent of that Thermo-Skyship, and especially the ducted thrust unit on the tail - doesn’t it look similar to the tail-end arrangement in your 1990’s grainy photo? I also suspect the black blob on the side of the unidentified aircraft is another turbo-jet mounted on the side as per the original Thermo-Skyship design in the video to give manoeuvre and forward thrust when needed.
So, my guess is that the grainy photo above shows a highly secretive development of Thermo-Skyship, with the envisioned turbo-jets powering a more aerodynamic shape (possibly with some early stealth features) with a company test aircraft escorting it - probably a Hawker Hunter by the looks of it. I’d say that this is more plausible than some of the theories put out there…
Last edited by The B Word; 6th Mar 2023 at 23:49.
An airship that can suddenly appear in a remote area without anyone seeing it transit there or move on from there? Silent turbojets? No operating base?
Not, not buying it.
Not, not buying it.
Why ever not, Ninthace ? Even the Russians were at it in the 90s too…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5AmHxoQJY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplan
The Thermo-Skyship also predicted a 600-900 mile range at over 100kts in its original envisaged configuration in the magazines of the day. it could also quite easily go in and out under cover of darkness. It does have a large heat signature though, but in those days the average layman didn’t have that sort of tech to see it at night without lights.
As for silent turbojets - wouldn’t the Hunter (or Harrier) have created a bit of racket, or are you suggesting they were glider variants?
Finally, the Russians also, according to this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...-converted.pdf were developing a nuke powered thermoplane that could fly for 8 years!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tx5AmHxoQJY
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoplan
The Thermo-Skyship also predicted a 600-900 mile range at over 100kts in its original envisaged configuration in the magazines of the day. it could also quite easily go in and out under cover of darkness. It does have a large heat signature though, but in those days the average layman didn’t have that sort of tech to see it at night without lights.
As for silent turbojets - wouldn’t the Hunter (or Harrier) have created a bit of racket, or are you suggesting they were glider variants?
Finally, the Russians also, according to this article: https://lynceans.org/wp-content/uplo...-converted.pdf were developing a nuke powered thermoplane that could fly for 8 years!
Last edited by The B Word; 7th Mar 2023 at 00:36.
Too big, too cumbersome, too slow and too noisy to operate unnoticed. Again, how did it go I unremarked for the rest of its sortie to and from wherever it launched, both visually and on radar? If it was a chase plane, why did not stay with it?
I still think it is a Surgeon’s photograph.
I still think it is a Surgeon’s photograph.
Ninthace here are some answers that might fit:
1. Firstly, this is not really an airship as you would normally think of. The Thermo-Skyship (or Thermoplan) that the Russians built uses bleed air, heated to up to 1200 deg C, to supplement normal ballonettes full of helium to create a significant amount of buoyancy. Just like the Hybrid Air Vehicle Airlander, they create more lift in forward flight by the shape of the hull as a lifting body (plenty of examples of that). Vertical flight is augmented by vectored thrust by rotating the jet turbines, and as the Thermo-Skyship weighs nearly at ‘lighter than air’ then less thrust is needed for vertical lift. Once lifted it transitions to horizontal flight by a fixed engine at the rear (with thrust vectoring nozzles) and rotating the lift jets to the horizontal giving it at 150kts-200kts forward speed (or maybe more depending on the design). To generate that near to negative bouyancy in flight then the engines at close to idle may produce enough heat to keep the hot air flowing into the lifting body shape making appear to hover (as per the YouTube video above).
2. As stated, they were experimenting with rigid structures by using light-gauge alloy plating instead of normal airship farbric/rubber skins. Research it, rigid airship structures are a thing and oddly enough Thermo-Skyship and Thermoplan used such. Also, look at the shape in the 1990 photo - it is seriously faceted - the same techniques to make it low observable to radar as used on the earlier stealth aircraft of the time.
3. Look at the weather in the photo. It looks like a fairly low cloud base. So it was either flying low level beneath it - which would make it suddenly appear to an observer on the ground - or it it was flying above the cloud and had a malfunction that saw it drop, very slowly due to its partial negative bouyancy through the cloud into view. Now, the approach speed of a Hunter is around 130-135 kts, so flying around slow speed would be possible (obviously a Harrier could go slower, but if it is a Harrier it is more likely a GR3 given the timeline).
4. Where did it go after the picture? Maybe back to VMC on top? Maybe to West Freugh, maybe to BAe Warton or the Wren Skyship company had set up on Jurby on the Isle of Man from 1982 (they even built a big airship sized hangar there). At the time of the photo Jurby Army Trg Camp was still MOD and the TA used its domestic accommodation from time to time. It’s fairly quiet at Jurby on the north of the Isle of Man, so that is possible.
I agree, this could be a “Surgeon’s Photo” equivalent of Nessie, but from what I understand many poured over it for years. To me it seems more plausible that someone spotted a compartmented research aircraft on camera on that day in 1990. There are many things that still have “kept their lid on” from the Cold War (or the end of it) and the technology is certainly feasible, if only to compare it to the Russian (that started as Soviet) Thermoplan in the other video. The observer sees this object, the shock of seeing something so unusual that means their brain fills in the gaps of ‘what they want to see’, then you get a story about some UFO type thing. Brains are good at giving things to believe on recollection!
1. Firstly, this is not really an airship as you would normally think of. The Thermo-Skyship (or Thermoplan) that the Russians built uses bleed air, heated to up to 1200 deg C, to supplement normal ballonettes full of helium to create a significant amount of buoyancy. Just like the Hybrid Air Vehicle Airlander, they create more lift in forward flight by the shape of the hull as a lifting body (plenty of examples of that). Vertical flight is augmented by vectored thrust by rotating the jet turbines, and as the Thermo-Skyship weighs nearly at ‘lighter than air’ then less thrust is needed for vertical lift. Once lifted it transitions to horizontal flight by a fixed engine at the rear (with thrust vectoring nozzles) and rotating the lift jets to the horizontal giving it at 150kts-200kts forward speed (or maybe more depending on the design). To generate that near to negative bouyancy in flight then the engines at close to idle may produce enough heat to keep the hot air flowing into the lifting body shape making appear to hover (as per the YouTube video above).
2. As stated, they were experimenting with rigid structures by using light-gauge alloy plating instead of normal airship farbric/rubber skins. Research it, rigid airship structures are a thing and oddly enough Thermo-Skyship and Thermoplan used such. Also, look at the shape in the 1990 photo - it is seriously faceted - the same techniques to make it low observable to radar as used on the earlier stealth aircraft of the time.
3. Look at the weather in the photo. It looks like a fairly low cloud base. So it was either flying low level beneath it - which would make it suddenly appear to an observer on the ground - or it it was flying above the cloud and had a malfunction that saw it drop, very slowly due to its partial negative bouyancy through the cloud into view. Now, the approach speed of a Hunter is around 130-135 kts, so flying around slow speed would be possible (obviously a Harrier could go slower, but if it is a Harrier it is more likely a GR3 given the timeline).
4. Where did it go after the picture? Maybe back to VMC on top? Maybe to West Freugh, maybe to BAe Warton or the Wren Skyship company had set up on Jurby on the Isle of Man from 1982 (they even built a big airship sized hangar there). At the time of the photo Jurby Army Trg Camp was still MOD and the TA used its domestic accommodation from time to time. It’s fairly quiet at Jurby on the north of the Isle of Man, so that is possible.
I agree, this could be a “Surgeon’s Photo” equivalent of Nessie, but from what I understand many poured over it for years. To me it seems more plausible that someone spotted a compartmented research aircraft on camera on that day in 1990. There are many things that still have “kept their lid on” from the Cold War (or the end of it) and the technology is certainly feasible, if only to compare it to the Russian (that started as Soviet) Thermoplan in the other video. The observer sees this object, the shock of seeing something so unusual that means their brain fills in the gaps of ‘what they want to see’, then you get a story about some UFO type thing. Brains are good at giving things to believe on recollection!
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You are still ignoring that this is the only time it was ever seen that day or, as far as we know any other day, It has not been seen going in an out of any of the locations you mention, ever. It was not seen en route at any point, ever. Given the transit speeds you suggest that is unlikely. A craft like that would be visible on radar, it is not that stealthy, so we have to assume they are all in on it too, both civil and military.
Finally, why on earth would a fancy airship be a black project?
Finally, why on earth would a fancy airship be a black project?
Last edited by Ninthace; 7th Mar 2023 at 21:39.
Because it isn’t really an airship as we know them. We also have no idea of scale in that photo.
I can recall when BAe released this photo in the early 2000s:
This is Raven. I envisaged a massive Typhoon sized aircraft. When I saw it, it had about a 4-5ft wingspan! Maybe that is why there aren’t many photos of it? It also flew at the remote Woomera range, so not many folks there to photograph it either (nor Corax, Kestrel or Demon).
I can recall when BAe released this photo in the early 2000s:
This is Raven. I envisaged a massive Typhoon sized aircraft. When I saw it, it had about a 4-5ft wingspan! Maybe that is why there aren’t many photos of it? It also flew at the remote Woomera range, so not many folks there to photograph it either (nor Corax, Kestrel or Demon).
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And yet you can provide a clear picture of it and its existence is well known as are similar projects.
Ninthace . You are wasting your time I fear. 
(As with anything involving the unqualified and unfounded Walter Mitty assertions of individuals such as Nick Pope who was a fairly junior secreterial clerk letter response writer without any aeronautical engineering or imagery analysis background)
(As with anything involving the unqualified and unfounded Walter Mitty assertions of individuals such as Nick Pope who was a fairly junior secreterial clerk letter response writer without any aeronautical engineering or imagery analysis background)Last edited by Haraka; 8th Mar 2023 at 12:34.
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