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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

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Alleged UFO or UAP, 1990, Calvine, Scotland

Old 21st Apr 2022, 20:43
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Aerial laser mapping test?

Hi All,

Does any of the following ring true to anyone, please, or does it sound like something from the brothers Grimm?

Further to everything that's been said, it's recently been suggested that the craft at Calvine was the same as one seen over Belgium in the "flap" that occurred from roughly 1989 to 1991. Calvine was August 1990.

Here's a couple of example reports:

https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/be/1dec1989eupen.htm

The suggestion is that the craft was an unmanned surveillance platform (high speed, stealthy, prolonged ability to linger over a target) which was designed to map targets using "lasers" or something similar. It was being secretly tested both over Scotland and Belgium in preparation for going into hostile territory.

Please note: I am emphatically not saying any of this is accurate. All the above has been suggested by a former military source, so I am just soliciting opinions from those who have more professional insight into these sorts of things.

As but one point, the Belgian vehicle(s) allegedly shone beams of red light at a lake, a building, and the ground, but would visible red light even be used in aerial mapping scans by craft trying to avoid detection? We are doubtful, as you might be able to tell, but I wanted to offer it up as it's something we've been told.

Thank you.
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Old 23rd Apr 2022, 18:49
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Originally Posted by India Four Two
Good luck, Matthew. It sounds like an interesting story.

Based on my one visit to Macrihanish as supernumerary crew on a Lyneham C-130, you should probably talk to the Campbeltown fish merchants. When I was there, there were several transport aircraft of various sizes, picking up orders of fish, during their "practice diversions".

While waiting for our fish to arrive, the captain kept one engine running, rather than trust the APU, because he wasn't supposed to be there!
Laughingly I dug up my copy of Stealth Fighter Pilot (D M Giangreco Motorbooks 1993) and Macrihanish is mentioned as secure FOb in Europe for the 117.






Cheers
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 11:39
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Thumbs up

Very enlightening. Thank you very much, Chopper.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 16:38
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Originally Posted by Timelord
That is a fake. Itís a mocked up reproduction of the actual photo.
as a representation it is interesting. The Harrier is of course not an AV8B, unless it has had it's nose pinched in a vice, but poetic license...
The shape is not inspiring as a lifting body, but as noted, could be a really poor rendition of an X-43 type hypersonic lifting body. It also is slightly reminiscent of the lower speed X-45 or X-47. Size-wise, it seems like a B2 size aircraft, and that first flew in 1989. If in a turn at the time, it could give a profile that could look like your seriously, horribly hopeless diamond, to hint back to Ben Rich and the 117. I'd be looking at the B-2 testing program for clues. From the side they are an odd device.
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 16:44
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Originally Posted by dead_pan
How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.
Actually, MC^2 is an approximation. Near enough for all of us, but it is not quite correct. Einsteins T-Shirt looks better than a value other than 2.00000000000
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Old 25th Apr 2022, 16:49
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Originally Posted by dead_pan
How many conspiracy theories start with these four words?

Talking of which, I recall attending an energy conference in the US a few years back during which an esteemed professor from a prestigious US uni ended his lecture with an entirely serious and non-ironic comment that, "according to Ben Rich", Einstein had got his famous equation all wrong, that it was in fact e=mc^2.5. Cue fits of giggles from us assembled Brits.
Actually, MC^2 is an approximation. Near enough for all of us, but it is not quite correct. Einsteins T-Shirt looks better than a value other than 2.00000000000

(E^2=mC^2 + pC^2 is more accurate). The proof of the T-Shirt does work, but it is for a specific condition which is why the additive gets put into the equation for all cases.

or:






whether it is close depends...
  • For E at rest, for a mass it is correct, if the mass is invariant
  • For a photon it is incomplete
  • For other cases, it is an approximation
Was a great presentation from Fermi Labs that made the point neatly.

Last edited by fdr; 25th Apr 2022 at 17:06.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 10:26
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Hi All,

We have learned from an RAF source that checks were carried out to identify the Harrier(s) with the Scottish Air Traffic Control Centre (Military) (ScATTC Mil) at Prestwick. We don't know the results, though.

It's a tiny snippet of non-Earth-shattering information, but it might jog someone's memory or prompt someone to reminisce about their time there. Does anyone know anyone who served there in 1990?

An ScATCC pamphlet from 1980 may also be found here: https://atchistory.files.wordpress.c...eanic-accs.pdf

I'll have more in the next few weeks, but that's all for now.

Cheers.
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Old 29th May 2022, 21:08
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American AV8B/Harrier "Air Pads" at Glen Tilt in 1990

Hi All
It has been claimed that an American "air pad", which I understand to have been a concrete or AM2-matting "expeditionary airfield" was operational at or near Glen Tilt near Calvine in 1990 and was supporting AV8Bs, aka Harriers.

We'd be very grateful to know if that assertion is true. Anyone know?

Thank you
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Old 29th May 2022, 21:58
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Keep at it mate !
Let no one grind you down !

El G.
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Old 30th May 2022, 00:26
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
Hi All
It has been claimed that an American "air pad", which I understand to have been a concrete or AM2-matting "expeditionary airfield" was operational at or near Glen Tilt near Calvine in 1990 and was supporting AV8Bs, aka Harriers.

We'd be very grateful to know if that assertion is true. Anyone know?

Thank you
What difference would it make if there was?
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Old 30th May 2022, 04:09
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Slightly digressing, speaking of Harrier or SHAR in Scotland, I was in the and was in the business suite in my digs for Heli Expo 2011 in Orlando,. I got chatting to one of the guests who was from somewhere on the eats coats of USA and he was a former Navy SEAL..who had roots here from Manchester. He said when he was on exercise over here for likes of Joint Warrior or the equivalent in the 1990s and was offered a ride in the back of a T.4N or whatever the two seat SHAR was, off the deck of Invincible, Ark or Lusty. He took up the offer with glee and spoke highly of our RN.

TBH i did not think the two seat trainer would be present at these exercises unless some Flag staff came up to see manuouvers.

Cheers
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Old 30th May 2022, 04:15
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Originally Posted by Matthew Illsley
Hi All,

Does any of the following ring true to anyone, please, or does it sound like something from the brothers Grimm?

Further to everything that's been said, it's recently been suggested that the craft at Calvine was the same as one seen over Belgium in the "flap" that occurred from roughly 1989 to 1991. Calvine was August 1990.

Here's a couple of example reports:

https://ufologie.patrickgross.org/be/1dec1989eupen.htm
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-ls_qP98M

The suggestion is that the craft was an unmanned surveillance platform (high speed, stealthy, prolonged ability to linger over a target) which was designed to map targets using "lasers" or something similar. It was being secretly tested both over Scotland and Belgium in preparation for going into hostile territory.

Please note: I am emphatically not saying any of this is accurate. All the above has been suggested by a former military source, so I am just soliciting opinions from those who have more professional insight into these sorts of things.

As but one point, the Belgian vehicle(s) allegedly shone beams of red light at a lake, a building, and the ground, but would visible red light even be used in aerial mapping scans by craft trying to avoid detection? We are doubtful, as you might be able to tell, but I wanted to offer it up as it's something we've been told.

Thank you.
Look at the 'Whale' or Tacit Blue

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...rogram-manager

It was meant to (if the balloon went up) and the hordes of WarPac arnor went over the Three Ladies (any USAREUR folk on here will know what i am on about perfect rolling tank country) then several of these low observable stealthy battlefield radar platforms would fly over, loiter behind enemy lines to act as targeting for the likes of LGB and artillery.. By the time it was finalised testing or what not then cold war comign to an end. J-Stars ended up with that role for which experimental first airframes served combat for first time during Desert Storm.

cheers


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Old 30th May 2022, 05:41
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Airpads at Glen Tilt

Originally Posted by Ninthace
What difference would it make if there was?
Hi Ninthace,
Thanks for replying.

In answer to your question: "Quite a lot... possibly."

Since 1996, the jet in the photo has widely been suspected to have been a Harrier, but no British Harrier could ever be found in the correct location at the right time. (See: Graeme Rendall's work online.)

The occasional suggestion that it was American (i.e. an AV-8B) was hence often dismissed out of hand by many people because it was a violation of Occam's Razor ("You're making this more complicated than it should be if it's a true story"), it was argued that there weren't supposed to be any in the UK at the time, plus logs from the nearest bases suggested no Harriers were there, and certainly no AV-8Bs.

We were told recently, however, that the craft in the photo WAS indeed an AV-8B. And that in another of the 6 photos, which no one has seen publicly but which is referred to in the loose memo from 1990 in TNA's files, that a second jet on-site was a British Harrier.

Now, a different source has come forward and told us that the Americans had 1 or more portable, temporary airfields in or around Glen Tilt in 1990. If that is so, suddenly, the possibility of someone flying from there to Calvine increases greatly, because it's a stone's throw away, and the encounter need not even have been planned. If there was a problem with the Diamond, for example, the nearest American air asset that could have been ordered to investigate might well have been only moments away. Might the diamond even have secretly come from the temporary base? The area has, after all, been home to secret aircraft trials since at least the early 1900s. If so, another long-standing objection - that the Diamond must have come from a long way away, and, if so, it would have been seen elsewhere along its flight path (but wasn't, ergo this is a hoax) - also perhaps starts to crumble.

Cheers.
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Old 30th May 2022, 05:58
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Originally Posted by chopper2004
Look at the 'Whale' or Tacit Blue

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...rogram-manager

cheers
Thank you very much, Chopper. That was a really eye-opening article. Cheers
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Old 30th May 2022, 08:09
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Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows so some sort of strip would be required (cf “Sid’s strip in the Falklands) . Given that the whole area was thick with low flying aircraft at the time it would have needed some sort of avoid around it to avoid a 420 kt Buccaneer or Jaguar bumping in to a landing or launching Harrier. Such an avoid would be promulgated by Notice to Airmen (yes, yes, I know) or NOTAM. Is there a record somewhere of NOTAMS extant on the relevant dates.?

Plonking a “portable airfield” down in the middle of a very busy low flying area would not be a small undertaking, and would attract a lot of attention from the air and the ground. I never heard of such a thing, and I was doing a lot of low flying around then.

Last edited by Timelord; 30th May 2022 at 10:05.
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Old 30th May 2022, 08:30
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Originally Posted by chopper2004
Slightly digressing, speaking of Harrier or SHAR in Scotland, I was in the and was in the business suite in my digs for Heli Expo 2011 in Orlando,. I got chatting to one of the guests who was from somewhere on the eats coats of USA and he was a former Navy SEAL..who had roots here from Manchester. He said when he was on exercise over here for likes of Joint Warrior or the equivalent in the 1990s and was offered a ride in the back of a T.4N or whatever the two seat SHAR was, off the deck of Invincible, Ark or Lusty. He took up the offer with glee and spoke highly of our RN.

TBH i did not think the two seat trainer would be present at these exercises unless some Flag staff came up to see manuouvers.

Cheers
BS! T4s did not operate from carriers. There were good physical reasons for this - the refuelling nozzles did not fit. The only time that one was landed onboard, they had to fit an in-flight refuelling probe and fill it through that!

Mog
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Old 30th May 2022, 09:37
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And I’m afraid that the idea of operating a Top Secret, highly advanced machine from a muddy field in the highlands is a complete non starter.
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Old 30th May 2022, 10:19
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Originally Posted by Timelord
Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows so some sort of strip would be required (cf “Sid’s strip in the Falklands) . Given that the whole area was thick with low flying aircraft at the time it would have needed some sort of avoid around it to avoid a 420 kt Buccaneer or Jaguar bumping in to a landing or launching Harrier. Such an avoid would be promulgated by Notice to Airmen (yes, yes, I know) or NOTAM. Is there a record somewhere of NOTAMS extant on the relevant dates.?

Plonking a “portable airfield” down in the middle of a very busy low flying area would not be a small undertaking, and would attract a lot of attention from the air and the ground and I never heard of such a thing, and I was doing a lot of low flying around then.
Thanks, as always, Timelord.

I agree that no one's landing a jet or high-tech craft on a patch of moorland. Please forgive the speculation. I'm just asking the Qs as they occur to me.

"Remember that Harriers taking off vertically was strictly for air shows." So this VTOL feature simply wasn't used under normal circumstances?

Can we read anything into this having allegedly been seen on a weekend, i.e. theoretically, the senior military knows this diamond is going to be brought in as a one-off, so they schedule it for a Saturday as no low flying is occurring? Would there hence be a need for a NOTAM for a top secret craft appearing just the once on a non-permanent airbase?

If (or rather IF) there also was a temporary airfield, though, and IF it had been built on private land, would that have aroused the same kind of interest from military personnel? There's what appears to be a simple turf airstrip at Blair Atholl, for example, not 5 miles from Calvine, that's over 300m/1,000ft long, with hangars, equipment, etc. One might imagine that being overlaid with matting, for example.

How quickly could a temporary runway or airpad be constructed? It looks, from the videos on YT, like a relatively simple task etc, especially if the land itself is already relatively flat.

Elsewhere, for example, https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/san-carlos-fob/ says:

"A little known aspect of the air war over the Falkland Islands in 1982 was the use of an austere Forward Operating Base (FOB) at San Carlos for Harriers and helicopters.
The design of the Harrier was predicated on operating away from large airbases and in austere operating bases that made use of rapidly laid runways, supermarket car parks and roads.
The dispersed operating concept for RAF Harriers was by 1982, both firmly established and well practised. 300m runways and 7 square metre vertical landing pads were the norm for such."

Similarly, there's this video of a Harrier taking off in the normal manner from an improvised airstrip:


Plus here are videos of a pad being constructed:

,
.

Thank you.

Last edited by Matthew Illsley; 30th May 2022 at 10:31.
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Old 30th May 2022, 10:56
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I’ll let the Harrier experts comment on most of that but regarding Blair Atholl: There is indeed an airstrip there, and there is (was anyway) a big blue circle around it on everyone’s maps meaning avoid. Any temporary operating surface would need to be similarly protected. If the whole thing was too super secret to put on a NOTAM there would have been a red (Provost Marshal Protected) circle around it without explanation. I can’t remember either but there may be records somewhere.
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Old 30th May 2022, 11:07
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And there you have your problem Matthew. Harriers do not just plonk themselves on and off strips. There is a sizeable support package that goes with them. Vehicles, refuellers, a few 12 by 12s, personnel and so on. Such a deployment does not go unnoticed, especially as you need a road to act as a take off strip. People tend to notice that sort of thing and it would have been commented on. Unless there was an exercise going on, it would be v unlikely. Where would the ac have come from and which sqn would have been operating in support?
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