What is going on at the top??
My views exactly. Some RNR bloke telling those that are still serving that we don't know what we (the silent majority?) want!! None of those currently serving, regular, RAF personnel, that I have spoken to, supports this change. Almost to a man and woman (or is that person) they thought there were far more important issues to be solved.
Chatter in our crewroom reveals absolutely no one supporting the change, including females; not one. Our majority are also more concerned about more important issues. Interestingly, my children (of joining age) are also puzzled by the amount of fuss as they don't believe their generation are pushing that kind of thinking.
So who is the Chief trying to impress or appeal to if even the so-called "millennials" and youngest generation don't mind the current set-up? I echo the OP's question! This is being overthought - the MACR question is particularly ridiculous.
Last edited by Jobza Guddun; 22nd Dec 2021 at 10:57.
Welsh people speaking Welsh
I can concede that maybe these incidents happened as you describe. However, I am still absolutely certain that many of you completely fail to appreciate the way in which the Welsh language is used. The reason I am so sure is that I was exactly the same. I had all the same prejudices and had heard all the same stories when I first went to Valley in 2002.
Calling the Welsh language ‘Druid speak’ and pretending that it is used merely as a secret code to gossip about English people behind their backs is pretty insulting and naive to say the least.
What you fail to grasp is that Welsh people speak Welsh to each other all the time. It is their first language. Just as two French people would talk French to each other regardless of whether there were any English people present.
If some Welsh people back in the 1970’s switched to Welsh specifically when you walked in, maybe you were the problem?
Just as every local village pub ‘goes quiet’ when an outsider walks in maybe you had preconceived ideas about what to expect and simply confirmed them when some strangers in a pub spoke a funny language in your presence.
I realise I can’t change your mind. That’s fine. It won’t ruin my holiday. But just as I came to realise that I was wrong 20 years ago to think the exact same things that you describe, maybe you could at least entertain the notion that the Welsh language is alive and kicking and not just in existence to annoy stuffy old men who are stuck in a time warp.
BV
Calling the Welsh language ‘Druid speak’ and pretending that it is used merely as a secret code to gossip about English people behind their backs is pretty insulting and naive to say the least.
What you fail to grasp is that Welsh people speak Welsh to each other all the time. It is their first language. Just as two French people would talk French to each other regardless of whether there were any English people present.
If some Welsh people back in the 1970’s switched to Welsh specifically when you walked in, maybe you were the problem?
Just as every local village pub ‘goes quiet’ when an outsider walks in maybe you had preconceived ideas about what to expect and simply confirmed them when some strangers in a pub spoke a funny language in your presence.
I realise I can’t change your mind. That’s fine. It won’t ruin my holiday. But just as I came to realise that I was wrong 20 years ago to think the exact same things that you describe, maybe you could at least entertain the notion that the Welsh language is alive and kicking and not just in existence to annoy stuffy old men who are stuck in a time warp.
BV
Bob, did you learn Welsh when you were in Anglesey? Were any adult language classes available locally?
It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley servicemen...people? No doubt it would help them if their parents did too?
It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley service
I recall visiting a barber in Llangefni in the late 70's, when I walked in it was busy, so I took a seat and read the paper whilst waiting my turn. As I waited all the chat between customers and the barber was in Welsh. When my turn came I sat in the chair and was asked something in Welsh I apologised that I didn't speak Welsh. The barber was extremely apologetic that I had been excluded. He said, in a really nice way, that if on entry I had said that I didn't speak Welsh then they would have switched to English. In my time at Valley I never saw the truculence that some have recounted.
Bob, did you learn Welsh when you were in Anglesey? Were any adult language classes available locally?
It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley servicemen...people? No doubt it would help them if their parents did too?
It's been compulsory for many years for children aged 5-16 to learn Welsh, so I guess that includes children of Valley service
BV - very well said!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Apologies for the three drift, but it seems relevant with the latest posts….
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/sch...-take-22305964
Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/sch...-take-22305964
Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh
Apologies for the three drift, but it seems relevant with the latest posts….
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/sch...-take-22305964
Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/sch...-take-22305964
Schools face closure as parents take children across border to avoid them learning Welsh
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What is going on at the top?
I’ve been thinking a while about this, but I would like to expand on my post #103 and what I think is going wrong right now. This is what I said:
This video seems to explain another angle to it, but also compliments it. It’s only 15 mins long and discusses why political correctness is not that good for the workplace from a pretty non-partisan viewpoint:
I was particularly taken by “the marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions…”. This is why there is a problem right now. You have an Oxbridge educated Chief who was tasked to deliver a report on social mobility, equality and diversity (the so-called Wigston report), who was leapfrogged as the second youngest CAS ever (Portal being the youngest in WWII) by the hapless Gavin Williamson who wanted to see someone younger as Chief. They have surrounded themselves with Minion WOs on Twitter who will call out anyone publicly on social media and at work if their ideas or beliefs do not align to their’s or their Chief’s - so much so, that true beliefs are driven underground. Then when you have a survey on the [incorrect by definition] use of the word Aviator instead of the Airman, and that survey reportedly returns an opinion of over 75% against it, but you just press with it anyway. That seems to generate a very unhappy workplace culture indeed. That TED talk explains everything that I see wrong right now and that is not just in the RAF, but across large sections of society. People are frightened to voice opinions as that “marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions” and so we see the current discontent.
If there was ever anything retention-negative right now, then it is the current [hopefully temporary] culture being driven. I say temporary as I tend to agree with Ricky Gervais on such matters:
The trouble is “the top”, to which this thread refers, is in so much trouble as they are out of touch. They believe that the Next Gen Air Force is what the very noisy Gen Y/Millennials are screaming for - with some proper virtue signalling - when actually they are in a minority and likely to be retiring when Next Gen Air Force 2035-2040 comes around. So ‘the top’ would appear to be missing this disquiet from the newer generations of the RAF who are getting more and more annoyed - of course, they communicate in their own way and you only have to see some of Gen Z’s memes to see how proper p!ssed off they are. Some of us younger Gen Xs are ‘read into these memes’ and it shows what a huge gulf there is between what the majority of the RAF wants and what ‘the top’ believes they should be doing. The final thing to say is that Gen Z do things, they are activists and will be great leaders - I can see them leapfrogging the Twitterati Gen Y within the Armed Forces. With some similar values to Gen X, then I like that, and the fact that many are fed up with Gen Y’s social media ‘cancel culture’. They want to go toe-to-toe and confront some of this and that is why you see our kids attending more live demonstration than ever before.
I was particularly taken by “the marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions…”. This is why there is a problem right now. You have an Oxbridge educated Chief who was tasked to deliver a report on social mobility, equality and diversity (the so-called Wigston report), who was leapfrogged as the second youngest CAS ever (Portal being the youngest in WWII) by the hapless Gavin Williamson who wanted to see someone younger as Chief. They have surrounded themselves with Minion WOs on Twitter who will call out anyone publicly on social media and at work if their ideas or beliefs do not align to their’s or their Chief’s - so much so, that true beliefs are driven underground. Then when you have a survey on the [incorrect by definition] use of the word Aviator instead of the Airman, and that survey reportedly returns an opinion of over 75% against it, but you just press with it anyway. That seems to generate a very unhappy workplace culture indeed. That TED talk explains everything that I see wrong right now and that is not just in the RAF, but across large sections of society. People are frightened to voice opinions as that “marketplace of ideas is taken over by Big Brother’s little Minions” and so we see the current discontent.
If there was ever anything retention-negative right now, then it is the current [hopefully temporary] culture being driven. I say temporary as I tend to agree with Ricky Gervais on such matters:
I wanna live long enough to see the younger generation not be woke enough for the next generation. It's going to happen. Don't they realise that, it's like, they're next. That's what's funny.We kicked out the old guard. We did it. There's only so woke and liberal you can get and then you start going the other way. But it's inevitable.
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If I may inject some local colour, Jersey’s ‘native language’ Jèrriais (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jèrriais) is again being taught in schools here. However, when my BiL (sqn ldr retd) was growing up here in the 50s his mother strongly disapproved of him using the language, as she deemed it ‘common’. Proper French or English was permissible. Curiously, Jersey law and legal documents were, until very recently, written in Jèrriais and it can still be heard spoken in shops in the rural Parishes.
Meanwhile, on another small Island, the Maltese perpetuate their own distinctive (dare I say, obscure) language. And now, since the departure of British forces some 40 years ago, the parallel use of English has declined noticeably. In recent visits, away from the mainstream tourist locations, we have encountered occasional difficulties in communication.
Apologies for the diversion!
Meanwhile, on another small Island, the Maltese perpetuate their own distinctive (dare I say, obscure) language. And now, since the departure of British forces some 40 years ago, the parallel use of English has declined noticeably. In recent visits, away from the mainstream tourist locations, we have encountered occasional difficulties in communication.
Apologies for the diversion!
Whoever replaces Wigston as CAS will have an interesting challenge ahead, and it will be interesting to see whether someone similar or someone with different views on these matters is appointed.
With respect to the language issues, I also heard the stories when I went to Valley in 1978 but never personally experienced anything negative with respect to Welsh being spoken when I was around. I once spent a couple of weeks working with a French military unit in France where, obviously, French was the first language but they could all speak good English also and did so in any conversations that involved us. One day at the start of the second week our host started a conversation with me in French, not consciously because he was trying to prove a point but unconsciously because we were, effectively, part of the unit. I considered this to be quite a complement!
With respect to the language issues, I also heard the stories when I went to Valley in 1978 but never personally experienced anything negative with respect to Welsh being spoken when I was around. I once spent a couple of weeks working with a French military unit in France where, obviously, French was the first language but they could all speak good English also and did so in any conversations that involved us. One day at the start of the second week our host started a conversation with me in French, not consciously because he was trying to prove a point but unconsciously because we were, effectively, part of the unit. I considered this to be quite a complement!
Drift warning!
In my early days in OMQs near the German/Dutch border, I went over to the nearest Dutch town (Roermond) to pick up some provisions, After quite a long time waiting whilst other people were served, I opined to the then Mrs Mogwi that I was not sure why I hadn’t been served. Instantly the shopkeeper apologised profusely for ignoring me and explained that he thought we were German!
Likewise, when the Burgermeister of Elmpt suggested to his opposite number in Roermond that a combined complaint about night flying from Brüggen should be made, his reply was that the noise of the Phantom was better than the noise of the Stuka.
Mog
In my early days in OMQs near the German/Dutch border, I went over to the nearest Dutch town (Roermond) to pick up some provisions, After quite a long time waiting whilst other people were served, I opined to the then Mrs Mogwi that I was not sure why I hadn’t been served. Instantly the shopkeeper apologised profusely for ignoring me and explained that he thought we were German!
Likewise, when the Burgermeister of Elmpt suggested to his opposite number in Roermond that a combined complaint about night flying from Brüggen should be made, his reply was that the noise of the Phantom was better than the noise of the Stuka.
Mog
Similarly drifting.
I ran many Great War minibus trips to the Somme, Flanders and Arnhem from JHQ, also near Roermond.
We took to displaying a large Union Flag on the German-number-plated battlebus to avoid catcalls and abuse in the Netherlands and Belgium. Even threats near Arnhem.
This over a discontinuous period 1980-1995. There are long memories in the Blitzed countries.
I ran many Great War minibus trips to the Somme, Flanders and Arnhem from JHQ, also near Roermond.
We took to displaying a large Union Flag on the German-number-plated battlebus to avoid catcalls and abuse in the Netherlands and Belgium. Even threats near Arnhem.
This over a discontinuous period 1980-1995. There are long memories in the Blitzed countries.
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I dunno but...
Personally I couldn't give a rat's a*s3 what we are called. I understand there is a debate to be had and 'airman' can be taken a certain way; but, what really grips my $h!* is being asked my opinion and then being told what I 'must do' while the survey that wanted to know what I think, hasn't even closed! 
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When the RAF was formed, one of the proposals for top brass ranks was something like: 1st , 2nd, 3rd Avion.
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer
Now we shall have Leading Aviator, Senior Aviator, Senior Technician Aviator, Chief Technician Aviator, Master Aviator and Warrant Officer Aviator. Cor! what a lot to remember!
Old Duffer
If you say that someone is a master of a particular activity, you mean that they are extremely skilled at it
Wasn't there some scuttlebutt about Wigston not wanting to risk the RAF Regiment by deploying them in harms way to secure Kabul Airport during the exodus? It instead being handed to the Army?
FB
FB
Well the Wegiment are waggedy wascally wuffians and may have wuffled some feathers. The job should have gone to the cavalry who would have least added some tone to the proceedings.
My grandsons are Masters, and my granddaughters are Misses. Sounds very gender specific.