AUKUS

[tartare]

Well if that's correct, I'll claim two for two.
Great news if so... the right decision.
EDIT - this is a very interesting story if true.
In the short term, three Virginia class boats.
In the medium term, options on two more.
In the long term, next gen Astute.
So the likelihood that the RAN will be operating a mixed fleet?
Fascinating - so that's what they meant by a genuine three nation solution.
Concurrent with this is the last in the series of the SMHs red alert series - which has infuriated those of a far left leaning persuasion.
Two suggestions - reintroduce national conscription, and not just for young people, in large part to snap the population out of complacency - not sure how that would play politically!
And secondly - Australia should openly host US nuclear weapons - the record showing that if you've got `em you're less likely to be threatened.
That'll get everyone thoroughly up in arms (sorry) and have to say, I completely agree with that suggestion.

[Going Boeing]

Originally Posted by tartare

Non-submariner naïve question here.
If Australia gets the Astute and wants to put an American battle management system in it - is that more or less a case of fitting different electronics boxes, software and monitor screens etc?
Or will different hull related hardware be needed - external sensors, sonar arrays etc.
I think I know the answer but am trying to gauge the degree to which it will be possible to balls it up...

I’m also a non-submariner but, I believe that one of the biggest problems when modifying a submarine is trim. The weight distribution along the length of a submarine is highly calculated, as is the size and position of ballast tanks - when there’s any weight change, these have to be recalculated.

If we were to lease the last 2 Astutes, the RAN would have some commonality with the sonar as the new sonar going into the Collins class is essentially the same as fitted to the Astutes - different combat system & weapons though.

The reported leasing/acquisition of 3-5 Virginia class as a stopgap until tri-nation SSN(R)’s can be built at Osborne would be a good outcome wrt the combat system and weapons but would create a lot of problems with manning them. They are constructed with a requirement for more than 130 crew and the path for all senior officers includes nuclear power plant training and a tour as a propulsion plant engineer. This is very different from the career path required for crewing SSN’s of British origin.

[Buster Hyman]

I don't have any skin in the game, aside from my own Skin if China joins the game, but as AUKUS is a Tri Nation effort, wouldn't getting the RAN into Nuclear boats be only one part of AUKUS? Could it be that the next gen Astute would also be an AUKUS project meaning Tri Nation compatibility, to a certain extent?

[ORAC]

Non-submariner naïve question here.
If Australia gets the Astute and wants to put an American battle management system in it - is that more or less a case of fitting different electronics boxes, software and monitor screens etc?

Built separately in large modules which slide into the hull. same for the sonar.

Command deck module for Artful.



Hull cut out for sonar




https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...submarine.html

Sam3 for Virginia and Columbia class.

https://www.naval-technology.com/new...ia-submarines/

[Asturias56]

"Two suggestions - reintroduce national conscription, and not just for young people, in large part to snap the population out of complacency - not sure how that would play politically!"

In the UK and US its the MILITARY who don't like conscription - they waste a lot of resources training people for 6 months so they can have undertrained, undermotivated bodies for 18 months max. Lots of bodies are only useful if you intend to refight the Somme.

If there's a problem in society why should it be dumped on the military to "solve"

[Flap Track 6]

Originally Posted by tartare

Non-submariner naïve question here.
If Australia gets the Astute and wants to put an American battle management system in it - is that more or less a case of fitting different electronics boxes, software and monitor screens etc?.

It's the systems integration task which is the killer. Welding great lumps of metal together is the easy part.
One of the big issues with the Upholder class sale to Canada was changing from UK to US weapons integration. I know the chap who lead that task and he doesn't like to be reminded of it!

[golder]

3 days for the facts, but coalition member who is briefed. He didn't balk in an interview, about buying 5 Virginias. UK program later.

You Tube

[rattman]

Originally Posted by golder

3 days for the facts, but coalition member who is briefed. He didn't balk in an interview, about buying 5 Virginias. UK program later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryvzRTulMp8

Hes a back bencher, LNP backbenchers have not been briefed. Only the shadow cabinet have been briefed from the LNP

[golder]

Sorry, change briefed to told. Is this guy good enough?
Virginias in the 30's and UK subs in the 40's

You Tube

[tartare]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Built separately in large modules which slide into the hull. same for the sonar.

Command deck module for Artful.



Hull cut out for sonar




https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...submarine.html

Sam3 for Virginia and Columbia class.

https://www.naval-technology.com/new...ia-submarines/

Thanks for that - very interesting - and remarkably common sense solution too.

[Asturias56]

" Only the shadow cabinet have been briefed from the LNP"

yeah - and do you think they kept their mouths shut? It's all over teh UK media yesterday and today.

Politicians leak like sieves - remember Sir Humphrey Appleby "The Ship of State is the only ship that leaks at the top"

[pax britanica]

Seriously can the UK afford all this? national infrastructure falling to pieces daily , no money for proper health care education pensions etc etc.
i know there is a genuinely serious 'heightened risk' but we are a very small island where shortcomings in all the above areas are a far more real and present danger to the average citizen than anyhting needing more nuclear subs and being involved in any way what so ever in the Pacific . From reading Pprune, danegrous I know, it would seem our conventional military are really struggling with what they have without politicians treating them as a pool of labour for strike breaking, and assorted crises .
Surely it would have made more sense to try and pool any nukes with France seeing as any attack on one is geographically an attack on the other and it seems the PM would like a new entente cordiale.

[ChrisJ800]

Seems like US are rolling out 2 Virginia class a year with potential to grow to 3 a year whereas UK is producig one Astute every 11 years. So can Oz really expect modified Astutes in the 40s?

[golder]

It may be a partnership with the Astute replacement.

[ORAC]

. Summary:

The were major problems at Barrow when the Astute contract was signed as over 20 years had passed since they built the last Vanguard - work force had dropped from 13,000 to 3,000 and most experienced people had retired. It took a lot of assistance from the US to get back up to speed again.

Once of the lessons learnt, as with aircraft, is that its essential to keep the design and manufacture teams intact and that is done by stretching out production between classes and boats to ensure the6 are always active.

In the case of Barrow the design team moved in from the Astute to Dreadnaught and are moving on in turn to SSNR. RR has completed the last PWR2B cores for Astute and has rebuilt their core production plant at Raynesway to build the PWR3 cores for Dreadnaught and SSNR.

At Barrow they are finishing off the last Astutes and stated work on the 3rd of the 4 Dreadnaughts (the construction hall can hold. 3 boats. The last Astute should be commissioned in 2026.

The first Astute was commissioned in 2010 with a planned 25 year life, so with current boats taking 8 years to be completed they should start work on the first SSN in the class just after the last Astute.

That doesn’t leave any space in the construction hall for any extra Astutes - or the reactors to power them. Planned SSNR construction will, presumably, be staged to replace the existing boats before they move onto the Dreadnaught replacement etc etc.

The assumption has to be, therefore, that SSNR construction for Australia will take place in Australia with RR providing the reactors from the UK and the UK and USA providing bith training and assistance, as the US did when the UK started Astute production.

[Asturias56]

Do they work nights and weekends? And that is a serious question.

[Asturias56]

IF the UK wishes to have a deterrent then it has to stay in the submarine business. In the event of a serious war they'll be the main forces available.

It's expensive but a lot of the money is spent within the UK

The "Astutes" have their problems but seem generally to be rated of equivalent quality (but different from in detailed capabilities) to the USN "Virginia's" - in other words some of the best around. There isn't any other UK military asset you can say that about - maybe throw in GCHQ.

The real question will be can they gradually ramp up capability to shorten delivery times?

[ORAC]

Do they work nights and weekends? And that is a serious question.

if the implied question is could they speed up construction in order to produce extra boats - where do they get the extra skilled engineers? It’s taken them over 20 years to get t9 where the6 are now. What they want is a stable work force with stable orders to maintain a stable production rate.

The US is struggling to increase production of the Virginia class from 2 to 2.5 a year for much the same planning reasons as the UK- the design team moved on to Columbia and is now mov8ng on to SSNX and they are already moving trained workforce onto the Columbia line.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/20...arine-program/

​​​​​​​I imagine once contracts are signed Barrow might also find it hard to keep staff numbers as Australia starts poaching. Adelaide or Barrow - tricky choice…..

[Asturias56]

I agree - but if they order enough boats atthe start there'll be a 20 -30 year production run

That should eb long enough to train a lot more people

Of course Barrow is not the easiest place in the UK to get more staff of any sort - its a bugger of a place to commute to

[Not_a_boffin]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

I agree - but if they order enough boats atthe start there'll be a 20 -30 year production run

That should eb long enough to train a lot more people

Of course Barrow is not the easiest place in the UK to get more staff of any sort - its a b8gger of a place to commute to

Has it occurred to you that a twenty to thirty year production run is a very bad thing? From a design team sustenance and supply chain obsolescence perspective?

As for Barrow - you don't commute there. You enjoy the lake district and the associated property values.