Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Sea Fury Down

Old 28th Apr 2021, 23:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: A better place.
Posts: 1,790
Can someone explain the oil issue in a little more detail?
Are tolerances so fine that the wrong grade will gum things up, or create excessive wear and tear?
tartare is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 05:20
  #22 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 57
Posts: 8,098
Originally Posted by havick View Post
Wasn’t there a documentary about a sea fury where the museum pilot crashed it into the only tree in the paddock for miles?
The original RNHF T.20 was landed successfully gear up in a large field - unfortunately the slope of the field led to an inexorable slide off to one side from the landing direction and straight into two trees. Same aircraft suffered another engine failure last year, this time with an R2800, and again ended up in a substantial hedgerow in several pieces.
treadigraph is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 06:37
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Farnborough
Posts: 12
Originally Posted by meleagertoo View Post
After the recent Avenger accident in the US one has to wonder if time shouldn't be called on these aircraft with incredibly complex 80yr old engines that no-one can afford (even if the expertise exists) to overhaul properly - and the Centaurus is far more complicated than most and seems suffers from it as we have seen several times in ecent years.
Terrible shame.
I don't think you can compare the Avenger to the Sea Fury. I have watched Avengers display in the UK for the last 30 years. Anthony Haig Thomas and Ray Hannah both displayed them and to my knowledge without issue.
Several more in America displaying without problems as well as a Centaurus engined Sea Fury iirc.
munnst is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 07:26
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 16
GeeRam,
I can't find the thread but there was a discussion on the Centaurus and the rather specific nature of the oil required some time ago on PPRuNe. I copied the details for my own interest. I don't know who wrote it and apologies to however did if what I copied is not accurate. Here it is:Re Centaurus Sea Furies, No one in Europe since Hoistler Gmbh in Germany, has an interest in maintaining Sleeve Valve Engines. Ricardo in Shoreham did the last RNHF Overhaul, and it cost so much the Engines now go to the States. However, the States as already stated are putting anything from 3350 t0 4800 P&W's in, because the remanufacture of the Sleeves is not financially possible. Getchell Ellesworth has looked at it at length. In the 70s when I was heavily involved with this, I received a midnight knock on the door, to find both Frank Sanders and Getchell standing in the rain, asking to come in. The RTO from Rolls Bristol, Johnny Danes and Buster Paine, and myself were looking at cobbling one serviceable engine from 3 Time Ex Ex Hoistler ones. They had civilianised the Spec to replace the long Piston with oil control ring below the gudgeon pin, with the Slipper type from the Bristol Hercules, which was identical in bore and port profile. This meant a lot less stress in the rotary gear that operated the sleeve drive, that caused so many failures. They looked at the pistons we had extracted and miked them up, and went off to find a source for Hercules Pistons. The Americans (Lloyd Hamilton), had tried chroming the bores, like P&Ws, but after ground running for hours on end, could not get the engines to bed in, even with cast rings. The Sleeves did not appear to be concentric, but had a slight polygonal inner surface, like modern semi automatic pistol barrels that have no rifling, and thus are incredibly difficult to remanufacture. The only alternative was to fit a Corncob derivative. Frank and Lloyd were the first to do this, and everyone else followed, except Getchell Ellesworth who has persevered. There is another problem, and that is lubrication. Sleeve Valve engines use a very different spec oil-100U-A heavy detergent oil which allows burnt oil dross to stick to the clearances of the moving parts, and fills its own gaps, without having to have tighter tolerances. Thus, the complexity of the moving parts is kept together. If a straight oil is used, or even a W, this Oil residue is flushed out into the filters and is lost, thus a lot of metal to metal movement occurs, causing too much wear. Shell has not made this for decades, until a batch ordered from Chris Fear by me, for RNHF in '76, coinciding with a RNZAF Order for their Freighters, and RNHF again in 2000. The mod for fitting P&Ws is quite straightforward, but can only use the Hamilton 4 Blade Prop. They have a never ending supply of these, so that is the only way Sea Furies can be maintained. The other Sea Fury problem the Bag operated Pneumatic brakes-These are the same as Meteors, and no longer exist, apart from M&B at Chalgrove. Thus, Lloyd and Frank modified F102 Brakes and Wheels (Same section and diameter), and the rudder pedals to give Hydraulic Brakes and a safe landing. Sorry this is a bit off thread, but Sleeve Valve knowledge is dying out, so I have tried to explain the problems. Stephen Grey may have the wherewithal to remedy this, as he goes to great lengths to be original.

regards Beez
Beez51 is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 09:28
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Pathfinder Country
Posts: 472
Can't recall the sleeve valved' Hercules (264) needing special oil when extensive RAF service. I believe it used bog standard RAF detergent'.
aw ditor is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 10:19
  #26 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 57
Posts: 8,098
Originally Posted by Beez51 View Post
Stephen Grey may have the wherewithal to remedy this, as he goes to great lengths to be original.

regards Beez
Stephen and Nick Grey/Fighter Collection modified WG655 to run a R2800, though if I recall it had a quick exchange mount so they could revert to a Centaurus. The R2800 was swinging the prop off a Grumman Guardian I think - it sounded great. Sold on to a new owner it was sadly very badly damaged last year after the R2800 expired during a flight out of Duxford with a fellow PPRuNer in the back seat - both aboard survived with some injuries, nothing too serious I think. WG655 was the Sea Fury referred to earlier which hit two trees in the middle of a Somerset field.

The Fighter Collection appear to have three other Sea Fury projects, VX653, VZ345, and WG599.

Fly Navy still have the single seat Sea Fury VR930 which I don't think has flown in some while.
treadigraph is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 10:24
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK/OZ
Posts: 1,747
I hope in the future vintage aircraft that have been retired due to cost and complexity of engine maintenance can fly once again under electric power.

Yes a bastardisation of history, devoid of the orchestra produced by ICE, but better to see the airframe in flight than not at all no?

​​
Mjb


​​​​​
mickjoebill is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 10:29
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: attitude is nominal
Posts: 1,383
Not the same thing it seems.
Less Hair is online now  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 10:45
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 1,285
Originally Posted by tartare View Post
Can someone explain the oil issue in a little more detail?
Are tolerances so fine that the wrong grade will gum things up, or create excessive wear and tear?
Yes, I believe from fading memory that was the case, and a quick trawl through a few old bits n bobs stashed away and I found this, but how true or not I don't know.

The formulation of the oil was to withstand high temperatures and small tolerances between sleeve and cylinder wall and to prevent Oil breakdown between Sleeve and Cylinder wall increasing friction thus causing increased wear and tear, due to high temps.


The oil appears to be called 100U oil, although an old post elsewhere on the subject by Pete Rushen from TFC from his says in the RAF on the Beverley also states RAF used OM270 oil when not in the tropics.

It also appears that the last batch of 100U oil was destroyed back in 2005 when Buncefield depot exploded.
GeeRam is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 12:47
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Rural England, thank God.
Posts: 619
Originally Posted by treadigraph View Post
Sold on to a new owner it was sadly very badly damaged last year after the R2800 expired during a flight out of Duxford with a fellow PPRuNer in the back seat - both aboard survived with some injuries, nothing too serious I think. WG655 was the Sea Fury referred to earlier which hit two trees in the middle of a Somerset field.
.
Nothing too serious apart from the backseater now being 1/2" shorter (according to him)!
skua is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 13:47
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 60
Posts: 267
Actually 4cm Skua!! I've had my first medical since the prang and the AME checked the measurement against last year's! Treaders, we were both more badly injured than was reported, but not as badly as we could've been........Death can be Fatal!
DaveUnwin is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 16:28
  #32 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 57
Posts: 8,098
I knew it was worse than suggested in the press Dave, assume the arrival was quite heavy? I missed the copy of Pilot with your article about the flight, just found it on Pilotweb - will there be a part 2 once the AAIB report has been published? Trust you back isn't giving you grief?

I gather one crew member of VX281 did spend the night in hospital, hope he is home now...
treadigraph is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2021, 18:59
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Somerset
Posts: 99
This was already with Navy Wings, and is civil registered. The ones handed over were the military registered aircraft.
Lynxman is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 07:20
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 60
Posts: 267
Hi Treaders, back still giving me grief - thanks for asking. That huge prop was a massive airbrake so speed was 140kt in the glide, hit the ground at around 130 and were still travelling quite fast when we hit the tree. Character-building stuff. Eskil did a great job. Hope the crew of VX281 are OK. Based on experience, I have to say that landing out in a Sea Fury has little to commend it.
DaveUnwin is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 11:17
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 219
Originally Posted by Beez51 View Post
GeeRam,
I can't find the thread but there was a discussion on the Centaurus and the rather specific nature of the oil required some time ago on PPRuNe. I copied the details for my own interest. I don't know who wrote it and apologies to however did if what I copied is not accurate. Here it is:Re Centaurus Sea Furies, No one in Europe since Hoistler Gmbh in Germany, has an interest in maintaining Sleeve Valve Engines. Ricardo in Shoreham did the last RNHF Overhaul, and it cost so much the Engines now go to the States. However, the States as already stated are putting anything from 3350 t0 4800 P&W's in, because the remanufacture of the Sleeves is not financially possible. Getchell Ellesworth has looked at it at length. In the 70s when I was heavily involved with this, I received a midnight knock on the door, to find both Frank Sanders and Getchell standing in the rain, asking to come in. The RTO from Rolls Bristol, Johnny Danes and Buster Paine, and myself were looking at cobbling one serviceable engine from 3 Time Ex Ex Hoistler ones. They had civilianised the Spec to replace the long Piston with oil control ring below the gudgeon pin, with the Slipper type from the Bristol Hercules, which was identical in bore and port profile. This meant a lot less stress in the rotary gear that operated the sleeve drive, that caused so many failures. They looked at the pistons we had extracted and miked them up, and went off to find a source for Hercules Pistons. The Americans (Lloyd Hamilton), had tried chroming the bores, like P&Ws, but after ground running for hours on end, could not get the engines to bed in, even with cast rings. The Sleeves did not appear to be concentric, but had a slight polygonal inner surface, like modern semi automatic pistol barrels that have no rifling, and thus are incredibly difficult to remanufacture. The only alternative was to fit a Corncob derivative. Frank and Lloyd were the first to do this, and everyone else followed, except Getchell Ellesworth who has persevered. There is another problem, and that is lubrication. Sleeve Valve engines use a very different spec oil-100U-A heavy detergent oil which allows burnt oil dross to stick to the clearances of the moving parts, and fills its own gaps, without having to have tighter tolerances. Thus, the complexity of the moving parts is kept together. If a straight oil is used, or even a W, this Oil residue is flushed out into the filters and is lost, thus a lot of metal to metal movement occurs, causing too much wear. Shell has not made this for decades, until a batch ordered from Chris Fear by me, for RNHF in '76, coinciding with a RNZAF Order for their Freighters, and RNHF again in 2000. The mod for fitting P&Ws is quite straightforward, but can only use the Hamilton 4 Blade Prop. They have a never ending supply of these, so that is the only way Sea Furies can be maintained. The other Sea Fury problem the Bag operated Pneumatic brakes-These are the same as Meteors, and no longer exist, apart from M&B at Chalgrove. Thus, Lloyd and Frank modified F102 Brakes and Wheels (Same section and diameter), and the rudder pedals to give Hydraulic Brakes and a safe landing. Sorry this is a bit off thread, but Sleeve Valve knowledge is dying out, so I have tried to explain the problems. Stephen Grey may have the wherewithal to remedy this, as he goes to great lengths to be original.

regards Beez
One of those PPRuNe posts that demands a 'like' button. Along with a 'Thank you' button and a 'Fascinating' button, tbh,
rcsa is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 11:33
  #36 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 13,170
Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
I hope in the future vintage aircraft that have been retired due to cost and complexity of engine maintenance can fly once again under electric power.
Yes a bastardisation of history, devoid of the orchestra produced by ICE, but better to see the airframe in flight than not at all no?
​​​​​
I'd rather see them kept in good original condition in a museum than to emasculate them in that way.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 12:18
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 19,392
Originally Posted by rcsa View Post
One of those PPRuNe posts that demands a 'like' button. Along with a 'Thank you' button and a 'Fascinating' button, tbh,
Agreed, When I joined up in 76 we were the last propulsion course to cover piston engines on it, we had a myriad of cutaways of sleeve valve engines etc that could be turned over, fascinating to watch them in action.
NutLoose is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 13:51
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,251
Nutloose, I believe one of those cutaways is in the Brooklands museum now.

Best wishes to the crew for a speedy recovery.

Poor old Jock will be lamenting the loss of a beautiful aircraft but celebrating the recovery of the crew!
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 14:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Florida
Posts: 0
Such a shame, it's good there was no loss of life.

I've always thought the Sea Fury to be one of the best looking aircraft ever made.
EvaDestruction is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2021, 15:31
  #40 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 57
Posts: 8,098
Originally Posted by DaveUnwin View Post
Hi Treaders, back still giving me grief - thanks for asking. That huge prop was a massive airbrake so speed was 140kt in the glide, hit the ground at around 130 and were still travelling quite fast when we hit the tree. Character-building stuff. Eskil did a great job. Hope the crew of VX281 are OK. Based on experience, I have to say that landing out in a Sea Fury has little to commend it.
Very sorry to hear about your back, Dave - I have some self inflicted problems that make their presence felt from time to time - my sympathies! I must say, if I'd been in the back seat my underwear would have been a casualty too.

Update from Navy Wings: https://navywings.org.uk/sea-fury-t-20-update/
treadigraph is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.