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Independent RAF

Old 10th Feb 2021, 15:24
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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What is the logic of the Navy taking over the RAF? They (the Navy) only have two airfields and neither of those is likely to still be above sea level by day 2 of any future peer-to-peer punch up.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 15:55
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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If the OP was fishing, 'twould see he's got a nibble or three.....

Where is the reasoned argument to either agree with or refute his questions?

Don't ask me - I'm just a civilian who's taxes pay for it.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 15:55
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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The Royal Navy, with its new carriers and aircraft could easily take on the RAF role on land. The Fleet Air Arm had a number of land bases in the past. As for transport aircraft, the work is done chiefly for the British Army so the army could take that part over. Training could be done at an MOD unit. Central Flying School would remain, as part of the MOD.

Any thoughts/opinions?
Is this not the whole reason their Air Ships got rid of the Harrier force, to stop this happening?

MM
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 16:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Why does the Navy have so many Admirals, Vice Admirals, Deputy Vice admirals and so on?

One would be more than enough.

As to the RAF and its Title Inflation, it is even worse!
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 16:57
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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bobward

When an OP appears on a forum and offers up a blatantly inflammatory question with no posting history it certainly appears as a fishing trip.

Youíll note he/she hasnít reappeared since asking the question.

If it is a lazy attempt to get us to do their homework for them then it needs more effort.

If it is designed to make us Air Force types get all indignant and wound up he/she really will have to try harder.

Until some serious meat is put on the bones of why they came here to ask the question they should not expect any serious answers.

BV
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 16:59
  #26 (permalink)  
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Just to play the game of "I didn't realize I had been trolled" for a few moments, and as an excuse to use some terrible business vernacular, you would probably want to examine the "value streams" that each service currently delivers. A quick examination would show that specialist teams with specialist equipment are probably better at providing specialist capabilities. Whenever you start homogenizing and emulsifying, skill levels and capability get eroded and reduced to the lowest common denominator. That's why it saves money, we provide everything "adequately" instead of anything "exceptionally". If you think defending sovereignty and sovereign interests should be done by the lowest bidder, losing the RAF makes perfect sense. If you think there's a little more to it than allowing millionaires to pay less tax, then maybe it's not such a good idea.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 17:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
When an OP appears on a forum and offers up a blatantly inflammatory question with no posting history it certainly appears as a fishing trip.

Youíll note he/she hasnít reappeared since asking the question.

If it is a lazy attempt to get us to do their homework for them then it needs more effort.

If it is designed to make us Air Force types get all indignant and wound up he/she really will have to try harder.

Until some serious meat is put on the bones of why they came here to ask the question they should not expect any serious answers.

BV
What he said!

Made oi larf though.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 18:25
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
When an OP appears on a forum and offers up a blatantly inflammatory question with no posting history it certainly appears as a fishing trip.

Youíll note he/she hasnít reappeared since asking the question.

BV
It is probably past his bedtime...
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 20:24
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Miles Magister
Is this not the whole reason their Air Ships got rid of the Harrier force, to stop this happening?

MM

Umm no, that was down to a poorly negotiated maintenance contract, that gave all to Bae, who then charged RAF for work when they broke 3 harriers while in their care.

Ttfn
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 20:36
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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What about the good old, really old, old days, when the RAF had its own Rolls Royce armoured cars to race around the desert in ?
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 20:48
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BDF

Letís go the whole way and become the British Defence Force, a truly true-service organisation. Boom.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 20:55
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by john lebrun
an independent raf is becoming hard to justify. The royal navy, with its new carriers and aircraft could easily take on the raf role on land. The fleet air arm had a number of land bases in the past. As for transport aircraft, the work is done chiefly for the british army so the army could take that part over. Training could be done at an mod unit. Central flying school would remain, as part of the mod.

Any thoughts/opinions?
do not feed the troll. I say again, do not feed the troll.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 20:57
  #33 (permalink)  
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If God had wanted the army or navy to fly, he would have painted the sky green, brown or navy blue.

Neither is the sky painted purple....

Next question....
 
Old 10th Feb 2021, 21:41
  #34 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking
When an OP appears on a forum and offers up a blatantly inflammatory question with no posting history it certainly appears as a fishing trip.

Youíll note he/she hasnít reappeared since asking the question.

If it is a lazy attempt to get us to do their homework for them then it needs more effort.

If it is designed to make us Air Force types get all indignant and wound up he/she really will have to try harder.

Until some serious meat is put on the bones of why they came here to ask the question they should not expect any serious answers.

BV
BV are you sure about that? joined 12 years ago, age 82, known to some, flown with by others. As my daughter said, one day the RAF will be the biggest cap badge in the Army. Though she had no great opinion of the Army officers she worked with. A colonel who wouldn't speak and a captain who thought her a subordinate.
​​​​
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 22:25
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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It is clear that the British (was about to say UK, but that is not PC) armed services are vastly experienced, but completely out of scale with current military realities.
Imho, the British military should best be compared to the US Marine Corps, they are both roughly the same size and serve largely as overseas intervention forces.
That does suggest that if the USMC can maintain an integral air force with no more than unit patches, so could Britain.
What is of course missed is that the US Marines do get access to the whole doctrine, design, develop, produce and support bureaucracy of the rest of the US military.
The British equivalent of this is presumably in Whitehall, invisible to budget cutters, even though that is where most of the money goes astray.
To illustrate, Space X provided government launch services for about a third the cost of the United Launch Alliance, the previous monopolist supplier.
Yet the USLA books were fully compliant with the lowest cost, best price requirements of the Defense Contracts Audit Agency....
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 22:27
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bobward
If the OP was fishing, 'twould see he's got a nibble or three.....

Where is the reasoned argument to either agree with or refute his questions?

Don't ask me - I'm just a civilian who's taxes pay for it.
BV is right. An observation that the Navy has land bases and an assertion that most transport flying is done in support of the Army doesnít constitute an argument worthy of refutation. When change is proposed, the onus is on advocates for it to make the case for ditching the status quo. In the absence of anything substantive to engage with, I would simply fall back on the key argument which led to the formation of the RAF in the first place, namely the Navy and Army having neglected air capabilities other than those which directly supported their institutional core businesses of sailing and soldiering. At the very least, an argument for change would have to address this point and say why it would not apply again in future. And it would be wonderfully ironic to hear arguments such as ďinstitutional myopia and parochialism are things of the pastĒ from the typical sort of people who advocate abolition of the RAF

Last edited by Easy Street; 10th Feb 2021 at 22:45.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 23:28
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ancient Observer
Why does the Navy have so many Admirals, Vice Admirals, Deputy Vice admirals and so on?

One would be more than enough.

As to the RAF and its Title Inflation, it is even worse!
i have never understood the obsession with ranks.

It is just a name.

However, it relates to pay.

If you were the boss of a factory that had 150-200 people you would expect to get paid as well (if not more) than a Sqn boss who will be a Wg Cdr earning £70k ish, RRP is not rank dependent and is specialist pay.

Look at anyone in charge of 10,000 people they will be paid significantly more than an AOC Gp and likely way more than CDS, never mind CAS.

Google CEOs of companies of 32,000 people and see what they get paid...






Last edited by heights good; 10th Feb 2021 at 23:44.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 23:37
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by wokkamate
Letís go the whole way and become the British Defence Force, a truly true-service organisation. Boom.
100%...

That being said, I doubt the other services will let CAS do the Xmas message, decide on the generic non-gendered-inoffensive-PC name for the personnel (formerly known as soldiers, sailors and aviators) or the hair regs 😀

Last edited by heights good; 10th Feb 2021 at 23:51.
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 00:22
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The OP is probably just trolling for laughs but the question is not as silly as it sounds. Canada went down this route although it was easier because all shipborne air are helicopters embarked on frigates and destroyers. Those guys and gals are Air Force members but tend to do the majority of their careers as MH drivers so they are a defacto Fleet Air Air and it actually works pretty well.

The bean counters made a pretty convincing case you could get the same bang for significantly less bucks and in the post COVID budget reality you can bet this idea is going to be floated in a venue much more consequential than PPRuNe....
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 01:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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BPF

Youíre right. Canada did go down that route. And then made a dirty great big U turn.

PN.

Itís not a username I have ever seen post in this forum. If he is an experienced poster it is a very odd way of doing business.

BV

Last edited by Bob Viking; 11th Feb 2021 at 06:13.
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