USAF ANG F-16 Missing in Michigan
https://www.yahoo.com/news/air-force...203047900.html
One of the after-the-fact hands-on options.
Grounding.
One of the after-the-fact hands-on options.
Grounding.
The Commmission report linked above mentions that USAF pilots are concerned about the increasing use of simulation but shys away from making any finding on the proportion. Indeed the report reads as if the Commission members have supped lightly from the Kool-aid. They don't pull any punches on experience levels, though:
Yup.
The Commission learned of students who completed a rushed initial training program, who were pushed through their follow-on training by less-experienced instructors, and then became instructors and leaders themselves. They are at higher risk of making costly mistakes and lack the experience to train the next generation. Without action, military aviators will not be exposed to what “right” looks like. Inexperience will become institutionalized and jeopardize the safety of a future generation of aviators.
Last edited by Easy Street; 13th Dec 2020 at 20:22.
Salute!
Well, Okie, this might be one of the rare times for a unit to cease operations. We do not know what happened, and back in the early days of the Viper it was not unusual to step back and take a deep breath and look for some design problem or a basic mechanical failure.
I fully agree with all here and from other countries besides the U.S. that promote more flying time to reduce accidents. Sounds backwards, but it ain't. If anyone here has not had a "close call" due to a poor decision or "bad day centering the ILS needles", be my guest. When we had the first fatality at Hill, it seemed obvious that something had gone wrong with the FLCS, as we had two episodes within a few weeks/months that had not been resolved. That's when you stop flying and try to find out what the jet is doing or not doing.
I was blessed to start my fighter career in ADC where we flew in all kindsa weather compared to the giys over in TAC. And an extra bonus for me was my squadron's policy of getting the newbies 30 hours a month in the UE. GASP! My buddies in the Hun and Thud and Double Ugly were getting 10 to 15 hours. And those hours were mostly in VFR so they could use the gunnery range. ADC also let us fly another plane besides the UE jet, so I got 10 or 15 hours each month in the T-33. So I can tell all that the experience my first two years paid off in spades.
So here's another nickel on the grass, and maybe we'll meet up one night at that hootch bar in the sky.
Gums sends...
Well, Okie, this might be one of the rare times for a unit to cease operations. We do not know what happened, and back in the early days of the Viper it was not unusual to step back and take a deep breath and look for some design problem or a basic mechanical failure.
I fully agree with all here and from other countries besides the U.S. that promote more flying time to reduce accidents. Sounds backwards, but it ain't. If anyone here has not had a "close call" due to a poor decision or "bad day centering the ILS needles", be my guest. When we had the first fatality at Hill, it seemed obvious that something had gone wrong with the FLCS, as we had two episodes within a few weeks/months that had not been resolved. That's when you stop flying and try to find out what the jet is doing or not doing.
I was blessed to start my fighter career in ADC where we flew in all kindsa weather compared to the giys over in TAC. And an extra bonus for me was my squadron's policy of getting the newbies 30 hours a month in the UE. GASP! My buddies in the Hun and Thud and Double Ugly were getting 10 to 15 hours. And those hours were mostly in VFR so they could use the gunnery range. ADC also let us fly another plane besides the UE jet, so I got 10 or 15 hours each month in the T-33. So I can tell all that the experience my first two years paid off in spades.
So here's another nickel on the grass, and maybe we'll meet up one night at that hootch bar in the sky.
Gums sends...
A comment on flying time/currency.
After UPT, I got banished directly to the T-37 IP purgatory in Del Rio in the mid 60's. SEA requirements basically drove pilot production number requirements, not necessarily quality. Bar just set lower to fill those Phantom PSO backseats and provide B-52 co's. In time they'll get what they need as aviation 'interns'. (60 or so folks graduated each class for a long time).
As a T-37 IP we were technically 'limited' (gasp) to 75 hours a month, but could be waivered to 80 a month. I flew a number of 80 hour months (lot of 3 a calendar day flights, two day, one night), combination of volunteering 'cause there was nothing else to do in Del Rio and I enjoyed being in the air. Got 2800 IP hours in 4 years (holidays cut into flying time). I'll tell you what, 75-80 hours a month and there was nothing you couldn't handle, you were an aviation King Kong.....but occasionally you had the feeling you had just almost killed yourself.
.....however after a beer or two, those cool clean bedsheets felt like heaven and tomorrow was another day.
30 a month almost seems minimal to inadequate.
After UPT, I got banished directly to the T-37 IP purgatory in Del Rio in the mid 60's. SEA requirements basically drove pilot production number requirements, not necessarily quality. Bar just set lower to fill those Phantom PSO backseats and provide B-52 co's. In time they'll get what they need as aviation 'interns'. (60 or so folks graduated each class for a long time).
As a T-37 IP we were technically 'limited' (gasp) to 75 hours a month, but could be waivered to 80 a month. I flew a number of 80 hour months (lot of 3 a calendar day flights, two day, one night), combination of volunteering 'cause there was nothing else to do in Del Rio and I enjoyed being in the air. Got 2800 IP hours in 4 years (holidays cut into flying time). I'll tell you what, 75-80 hours a month and there was nothing you couldn't handle, you were an aviation King Kong.....but occasionally you had the feeling you had just almost killed yourself.
.....however after a beer or two, those cool clean bedsheets felt like heaven and tomorrow was another day.
30 a month almost seems minimal to inadequate.
OK465
I realise this thread is straying into the ‘not enough hours’ territory but your previous post shows an entirely different perspective.
It is no coincidence that fatigue has long been recognised as a threat in itself and 80 hour months (I’m guessing the Tweet wasn’t a particularly high G aircraft and I’m also assuming your totals include a fair amount of taxy time but that’s a different argument) sound horrific. Obviously simulators weren’t a realistic option back then.
I’ve done a few 30’s and a 40 hour month and I felt ball-bagged at the end of them (mostly high G sorties in the training world).
So, as with everything I’d say there’s a happy medium. I think it’s plain to see that the dearth of hours nowadays is not a good thing. But 20-30 airborne hours per month with a sim as back up would make for FJ ninjas in the modern world.
The problem, as I see it, is VSOs looking at the world through the prism of how it was for them when they were junior pilots. 2-3 tours as a JP before any responsibilities and 300+ hours per year as standard (or so the stories have us believe on here).
If we were to have a bean counter (or any non aircrew individual) as CAS I can only imagine it would get a lot worse.
Flying is expensive. Even drones need fuel. Aircraft crashes often cost significantly more though.
BV
(In reflective mood).
It is no coincidence that fatigue has long been recognised as a threat in itself and 80 hour months (I’m guessing the Tweet wasn’t a particularly high G aircraft and I’m also assuming your totals include a fair amount of taxy time but that’s a different argument) sound horrific. Obviously simulators weren’t a realistic option back then.
I’ve done a few 30’s and a 40 hour month and I felt ball-bagged at the end of them (mostly high G sorties in the training world).
So, as with everything I’d say there’s a happy medium. I think it’s plain to see that the dearth of hours nowadays is not a good thing. But 20-30 airborne hours per month with a sim as back up would make for FJ ninjas in the modern world.
The problem, as I see it, is VSOs looking at the world through the prism of how it was for them when they were junior pilots. 2-3 tours as a JP before any responsibilities and 300+ hours per year as standard (or so the stories have us believe on here).
If we were to have a bean counter (or any non aircrew individual) as CAS I can only imagine it would get a lot worse.
Flying is expensive. Even drones need fuel. Aircraft crashes often cost significantly more though.
BV
(In reflective mood).
Agree with the 20-30 hr ninjas especially with modern fighter aircraft smart capabilities.
Another factor when you're dealing with ANG or USAFR mishaps like this one concerns whether the pilot was a part-timer, local or commuting, or a full timer, ART or Title something or other (don't recall the number) Active duty.
Generally part-timers flew fewer overall hours than full timers but were given scheduling preference when they were available. The gotcha is not the flight hours, but the crew rest requirements that were sometimes 'stretched' when the airline types would commute in the night before. For years it wasn't even an issue and generally overlooked, and at the 465th the majority of pilots were airline commuters. We never had any problems resulting from this in any unit I was in, but if there had been a mishap, the previous 24-48 hour look-back might have reflected unfavorably on the fingers crossed command style. Eventually some units went so far as to having the commuters provide signed accounts of the prior activities as a CYA measure before being cleared to fly. Jump seat commuter activities would have been easily researched anyway. I started out as a full-timer and eventually became a part-timer when I got a civvy flying job. But I was a local. Tulsa ANG way back in the F-100 days didn't allow commuters in the unit at all as a control measure, you had to be local.
Never flew combat or those demanding multiple AAR max time on station gigs, but my time in the F-16 started at age 43. Two BFMs a day and you were certainly tired with a fair share of neck and back aches. 50 hrs/mo let alone 75 in that machine might have done some permanent damage. Max I've done is 36 while in training.
BTW: IIRC max of 5 minutes total was allowed for taxi time each flight, so every 12 sorties you gained 1 hr of logged flight time. T-37 training sortie length was usually 1.3 to 1.4 hrs. Figure 1 hour of taxi credit in roughly 16 hours of actual flight. So out of 2800 hrs logged, 175 was taxi time. T-37 over the top maneuvers used 4 Gs, high speed dive recovery training maybe 5 Gs, but this was without a G-suit. I've been grayed out numerous times but never blacked out.
Another factor when you're dealing with ANG or USAFR mishaps like this one concerns whether the pilot was a part-timer, local or commuting, or a full timer, ART or Title something or other (don't recall the number) Active duty.
Generally part-timers flew fewer overall hours than full timers but were given scheduling preference when they were available. The gotcha is not the flight hours, but the crew rest requirements that were sometimes 'stretched' when the airline types would commute in the night before. For years it wasn't even an issue and generally overlooked, and at the 465th the majority of pilots were airline commuters. We never had any problems resulting from this in any unit I was in, but if there had been a mishap, the previous 24-48 hour look-back might have reflected unfavorably on the fingers crossed command style. Eventually some units went so far as to having the commuters provide signed accounts of the prior activities as a CYA measure before being cleared to fly. Jump seat commuter activities would have been easily researched anyway. I started out as a full-timer and eventually became a part-timer when I got a civvy flying job. But I was a local. Tulsa ANG way back in the F-100 days didn't allow commuters in the unit at all as a control measure, you had to be local.
Never flew combat or those demanding multiple AAR max time on station gigs, but my time in the F-16 started at age 43. Two BFMs a day and you were certainly tired with a fair share of neck and back aches. 50 hrs/mo let alone 75 in that machine might have done some permanent damage. Max I've done is 36 while in training.
BTW: IIRC max of 5 minutes total was allowed for taxi time each flight, so every 12 sorties you gained 1 hr of logged flight time. T-37 training sortie length was usually 1.3 to 1.4 hrs. Figure 1 hour of taxi credit in roughly 16 hours of actual flight. So out of 2800 hrs logged, 175 was taxi time. T-37 over the top maneuvers used 4 Gs, high speed dive recovery training maybe 5 Gs, but this was without a G-suit. I've been grayed out numerous times but never blacked out.
Last edited by OK465; 14th Dec 2020 at 13:34.
Nothing quite like being in one's early 20s. 
(As an example, to bump the 80 it took 10-12 triple-turn days (approx 42 hours + 28 double-turn hours the other 10-12 days) out of the 20-23 weekdays available each month plus a morale building weekend X-C or two. Ludicrous, but not uncommon.)
(As an example, to bump the 80 it took 10-12 triple-turn days (approx 42 hours + 28 double-turn hours the other 10-12 days) out of the 20-23 weekdays available each month plus a morale building weekend X-C or two. Ludicrous, but not uncommon.)
Salute!
Besides the actual flights versus the sims, the non-flying factors can also be a factor as a previous contributor points out.
I can tell ya that I am in worse shape mentally now with all the COVID restrictions and rules and being a prisoner except for very serious excursions, that it is worse than when getting shot at and having the Vee fire rockets at us back in the barracks. It has to work on ya, and worse than combat, where some innate human gene kicks in and you can go to sleep in a minute, anywhere. You can sleep thru the night with a friendly howitzer 200 yards away firing into the jungle for harrassment, but you come instantly awake when a 122mm rocket hits within a quarter mile, heh heh.
So i ageee with the post about external forces being a factor.
That being said, there is no substitute for actually flying the plane, and our commercial folks here should take every oppo to handfly in order to face that one day down the road when TSHTF. Think Sully.
---------------
RIP to another of our brotherhood, and I have almost run outta nickels last three weeks.
Gums sends...
Besides the actual flights versus the sims, the non-flying factors can also be a factor as a previous contributor points out.
I can tell ya that I am in worse shape mentally now with all the COVID restrictions and rules and being a prisoner except for very serious excursions, that it is worse than when getting shot at and having the Vee fire rockets at us back in the barracks. It has to work on ya, and worse than combat, where some innate human gene kicks in and you can go to sleep in a minute, anywhere. You can sleep thru the night with a friendly howitzer 200 yards away firing into the jungle for harrassment, but you come instantly awake when a 122mm rocket hits within a quarter mile, heh heh.
So i ageee with the post about external forces being a factor.
That being said, there is no substitute for actually flying the plane, and our commercial folks here should take every oppo to handfly in order to face that one day down the road when TSHTF. Think Sully.
---------------
RIP to another of our brotherhood, and I have almost run outta nickels last three weeks.
Gums sends...
Last edited by gums; 14th Dec 2020 at 21:56.
