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Extinction Rebellion desecrate cenotaph.

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Extinction Rebellion desecrate cenotaph.

Old 12th Nov 2020, 08:44
  #41 (permalink)  
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 09:39
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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I was drawn to read this thread by the title "desecration of the Cenotaph", and drawn in further when I read of wreaths being trampled over. My reactions were no different it seems to most others. It is interesting though that you have to read quite a bit further to realise that there was no damage to the Cenotaph, and no trampling of wreaths, and indeed that there seems to have been a degree of care taken to avoid any such damage.
Don't get me wrong, I still think the protest was wholly inappropriate, but the real issues seem to me to be a) How manipulatively the media reported the story , b) how we are supposed to accept this disrespect of a time and place of such national significance under the cloak of "freedom of expression" Would it have been the same if some similarly disrespectful actions had been aimed at a Mosque? or a Pride parade? or a BLM rally?
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 09:55
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by falcon900 View Post
I was drawn to read this thread by the title "desecration of the Cenotaph", and drawn in further when I read of wreaths being trampled over. My reactions were no different it seems to most others. It is interesting though that you have to read quite a bit further to realise that there was no damage to the Cenotaph, and no trampling of wreaths, and indeed that there seems to have been a degree of care taken to avoid any such damage.
Don't get me wrong, I still think the protest was wholly inappropriate, but the real issues seem to me to be a) How manipulatively the media reported the story , b) how we are supposed to accept this disrespect of a time and place of such national significance under the cloak of "freedom of expression" Would it have been the same if some similarly disrespectful actions had been aimed at a Mosque? or a Pride parade? or a BLM rally?
Exactly.
The protest isn't to my taste, but you could easily argue that ANY protest is done at a time that is inappropriate, because they usually are the result of something outrageous.
I fully understand why so many serving military personnel and veterans were triggered by this, at least initially, but I hope after the cool down and some critical thinking and analysis, they will come to the same conclusion. They're in the business to defend freedom, and sometimes freedom is outrageous.

As for your last question(s), that's a Whataboutism fallacy. The debate isn't about Mosques, Pride or BLM. It's about how a lack of intervention in a global climate crisis will make us less free, and how we can prevent conflict by tackling this challenge.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 10:09
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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BVRAAM,
I wasnt commenting on the merits or otherwise of the protesters cause, but rather how we seem to be expected to be tolerant of some kind of protests but not others. I suspect our views on the issues presented by climate change would not be much different.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 10:12
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Provided they aren't blocking the road and preventing the rest of us from going to and from work, burning down businesses, looting, assaulting the Police or getting within the rona's happy space during this pandemic, I don't really care if people protest. Everyone has the right to a peaceful protest.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 10:19
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kghjfg View Post
On another site I’ve seen a video of someone dressed as a soldier walking across the wreaths at the cenotaph this morning to place a “climate change” wreath above the others at the cenotaph.

He actually stepped on the wreaths at the Cenotaph.

I’m saddened that XR will not denounce it, I’m saddened that the chap looks in his 70’s and he thinks this is an ok thing to do.

Hoping he’s a Walt.

Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 10:47
  #47 (permalink)  
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https://order-order.com/2020/11/12/w...reath-removal/

Chris Loder, the MP for West Dorset has this morning confirmed he was the parliamentarian who yesterday evening removed the Extinction Rebellion protest wreath from the Cenotaph as Guido exclusively reported last night.

Loder has is passionate about this, half the MP’s tweets this month have been dedicated to remembrance, and the Cenotaph was even built with stone from his own constituency. The 2019 intake MP told Guido:

“I could not stand by and watch our Remembrance Day for those who died in war, and to whom we owe so much, be hijacked for a political stunt by this far-left outfit. This was totally wrong, and I believed the wreath should be removed.”

“This week, thousands of veterans and members of the armed forces have stayed away from the Cenotaph in our national effort to control coronavirus. For political protestors to take advantage of this situation is disrespectful to our servicemen and women, past and present. I want them to know that I am on their side and will support them all the way”.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 11:46
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.
I wholeheartedly concur

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Old 12th Nov 2020, 12:45
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.
No matter how much we disagree with the opponent, this is simply wrong.

I despise XR, but they have a right to an opinion. The free speech we should protect the most is that with which we disagree.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 12:49
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.
+1 from me too. Bear in mind that Extinction Rebellion are not one big group, there isn't a membership and anyone can take action in their name - remember the plonker that climbed on the roof of the DLR to protest about people using public transport, for example?

I do agree with some of their views, and for sure climate change leading to global food shortage and displacing millions as fertile land becomes uninhabitable desert will likely cause war and suffering as those that have try to repel those that haven't. Nobody wants that, and but not sure that this was not the time or place to raise the issue - this was a time to reflect on those that have made the ultimate sacrifice, and to politicise this was not right IMO.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 13:01
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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"as fertile land becomes uninhabitable desert "

yeah but a lot of tundra will become useable land - bigger problem is sea level rise which can flood vast areas of Australia, the Mid West , NW Europe etc etc
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 13:34
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.
No matter how much we disagree with the opponent, this is simply wrong.

I despise XR, but they have a right to an opinion. The free speech we should protect the most is that with which we disagree.
Hang a big old nope on that one.

Just as these numpties had the right to hang something, the MP had the right to remove it. The right isn't one way like you seem to think.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 13:48
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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muppetofthenorth - fully agree. XR made a statement, as is their right. Chris Loder made another, as is his.

It is a shame that one of those rights was exercised in such an obnoxious manner.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 14:38
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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Chris Loder is a disgrace and should have the whip removed for that.

He's an elected representative. He has no business intervening in a peaceful protest.
He wasn't intervening in a peaceful protest, he was simply removing an inappropriate wreath that had been placed there by a prat.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 14:40
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Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth View Post
Hang a big old nope on that one.

Just as these numpties had the right to hang something, the MP had the right to remove it. The right isn't one way like you seem to think.

He did so as an elected Member of Parliament.

That sends an ugly message.

Now if you or I did it, that's different. I would have gladly removed it, but I am not elected to public office and accountable to the tax payer...
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 15:14
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Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
He did so as an elected Member of Parliament.

That sends an ugly message.

Now if you or I did it, that's different. I would have gladly removed it, but I am not elected to public office and accountable to the tax payer...
As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 15:49
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.
Havent we already seen where “conservative values” get us from across the pond?
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 18:00
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
As an MP he is accountable primarily to his electorate, who I dare say back him overwhelmingly. Being in receipt of taxpayers’ money does not in any way constrain MPs’ freedom to take political actions or express political views, indeed in other circumstances they are the least constrained of all citizens in that regard thanks to Parliamentary privilege. There are plenty who see his actions as far from ugly, quite the opposite in fact: standing up for (small-c) conservative values at a time when such things are too easily labelled ‘reactionary’ and their adherents ‘boomers’ or ‘gammons’. Good for him.
As a conservative (again, small-C), I value the same things and I certainly wouldn't have protested at the Cenotaph, I just see the big picture and the ugly precedent that he has set, which will undoubtedly be used by others to score points in the future. Again, as a conservative, I am pretty used to my views being censored in the name of "political correctness" these days, so I am mindful of the free speech of others.

By the way, Parliamentary privilege only applies in the Commons/Lords. As soon as they leave the building, they must be responsible with their speech, like the rest of us. For example, Dominic Raab has the total freedom in the main chamber of the House of Commons to reveal the nation's most classified, current foreign intelligence and he cannot be prosecuted for it, because it would be said under Parliamentary privilege. He would go to prison if he revealed the same information in his constituency or elsewhere, outside of Parliament.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 18:27
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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I'll be frank...as an ex serviceman, and someone completely in tune with XR, the desecration of the Cenotaph to forward the issue of climate change is completely unacceptable. I don't have to ask other mates whom are ex servicemen on the issue...they would all agree.

Utterly disgraceful act.......

There are far better forums to forward the issue.
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Old 12th Nov 2020, 19:43
  #60 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
Would you mind editing that?

I have just watched it. The ex soldier (not a walt) very respectfully salutes the monument, pauses and then, with great care and with frankly, nimble feet for a man his age, tip toes around all of the other wreaths, being extra careful not to tread on any of them and places his wreath. Nothing at all like the message you have portrayed.

You have managed to wind up the usual JB suspects who, without viewing the video themselves have jumped up and down in outrage at your stupidly inaccurate description of events.

Shame on you.

I have no links with XR but I do agree with some of their views, but not their idiotic anarchic actions. This is not one of them.
in the same way you are free to support his actions and would do the same yourself, I am free to find them despicable.

I know a XR Lieutenant (yes, they give themselves military ranks), I know exactly how they operate and their purpose, and if you think it’s about the environment, you are a bigger wally than Mr Bellend himself.

(What a name!)

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