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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

Old 4th Oct 2020, 13:35
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Originally Posted by Tarnished View Post
Still trying to imagine the sequence of events and actions that resulted in the coming together of these aircraft.

This link is boom AAR as opposed to probe and basket, but if you can manoeuvre an AWACS to avoid a catastrophe, then you should be able to do the same in an F35B I would have thought

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcLiAAVeYhk

Control restriction, lose article, sun in eyes .....
I wonder how the F35 engine with full electronic control would react to a slug of fuel down the intake if they had a hose or coupler failure.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 15:17
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Originally Posted by Georg1na View Post
"Screaming holy shit I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention."

I have had one and all I used was a Mayday call. Seemed to work......................
As did: "XYZ, downwind, la....EJECTING!" (Nth Yorks airfield late 70's/v early 80's.)

Like MPN11, I was responsible for briefing, in this case, the monthly Upper Heyford Instrument School on UK ATC procedures that included the use of MAYDAY and PAN. The crews' main concern appeared to be the anticipated and associated 'investigation' and paperwork involved in the use of these pre-fixes. Most appeared mightily reassured that that no such bureaucracy existed in the UK - at least not from the ATC side - anyway. A briefing on the UK's D&D system, and that you could upgrade/downgrade/cancel your emergency call, usually drew expressions of relief and confidence too.
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 18:37
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Nicely said, DML ... sadly I never received that feedback. My presentation technique was obviously deficient!
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 20:52
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A very good friend who has significant experience in air refueling an HH-53C from a C-130 wondered if a contributing factor might have been sun angle at 1600 local. I looked up a sun angle calculator and took an easy out by using the data for LAX at that time of day, and the elevation angle is between 18 and 19 degrees. He may have a point, depending on how the join up was being run.
( and if the sun was out )
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Old 4th Oct 2020, 22:05
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JD, try `NOAA Solar Calculator`,,jus done it for LAX and Phoenix .... 246*az.26*el/Ph... 241*az.30*el LA.. Sunset1815 PH,.. 1839 LA....
As the a/c were at 17000 ft,he could see Thermal,and who wants to tank in IFR anyway.... no better day to pull off a landing like that....
If one looks closely it appears he had some flap,which if selected to 20* ,will give full hyd .pressure to the rudder,and also got full rudder trim,which you definitely need when double asymmetric on one side..it also looks like the stbd. drogue is in the pod,which might indicate it could have been a `hard- hose hit`,a broken probe,and as ``sailvi767` suggests,a load of fuel going down the F35 intake,over the canopy like a car wash...and no wipers...
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 01:00
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Sycamore, I used that site-must have fat fingered one of the inputs. Have to go back there and redo it. Anyway, as to the rest I can see where you are going and I’d guess that some information based on the debriefs will be available soon. Another point I considered is that if the sun was out and bright, the 130 PIC would have set it up so the 35 was looking down sun, not into it.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 07:44
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Originally Posted by Joe Smith View Post
Because in the US, the word EMERGENCY means the same thing. Guess that is hard for you other English speaking folks to understand. We are taught from childhood to use the word EMERGENCY, simple as that.
Joe, can you contact your friendly local FAA FSDO and get them to correct FAR-AIM Section 6-3-1 d, to reflect your position, please. They unfortunately still state:

"Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions."

Glad that you can improve standards in an international environment.


Ooops, can you also follow up and amend ICAO ANNEX 10, VOL 2, which differs from your standard, and, while you are at it, please amend ICAO DOC 9432 Section 9, para 9.1.3, it still uses the old apparently not appropriate term 'MAYDAY".

Anyway, glad you can help clear up the rest of the world and the FAA's standards to meet your requirements.


cheers
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 10:15
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It amazes me that the United States Military still has such a “colonial” attitude towards R/T. The reluctance for a world power to use the Internationally agreed standard is appalling and does lead to misunderstandings around the world.

I recall back in 1978 flying a F4 in Germany when we suffered a major malfunction with a distinct possibility of having to eject. We declared a Mayday and diverted to the closest airfield. All was going well until on long finals to land when there was a off-putting amount of chat on frequency.

The American Flight Lead was arguing with ATC that his 4 ship had a range slot and his flight should be given priority over inbound traffic. When ATC explained that Mayday 01 was on long final cleared to land he replied “is Mayday 01 his callsign or does he have some kind of problem?”

I could not listen any longer and turned the radio volume fully down and continued to land. This Flight Lead showed a complete lack of understanding of the meaning and use of MAYDAY.

In later years I taught at a TFTS in the USA. Even then the students were taught to declare an IFE (In Flight Emergency) instead of Mayday and PAN. My students were all German and so we ensured that they were taught correctly.

When will they ever learn?
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 15:52
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I am surprised that no one has commented on how fortunate the F35 pilot was on being able to eject. His canopy must have been very close to being the point of impact on his frame. For this to escape damege one can surmise that a possible scenario was too much overtake followed by a bunt under the Hercules wing with the twin fins being the possible scythes. .
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 15:57
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Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
It amazes me that the United States Military still has such a “colonial” attitude towards R/T. The reluctance for a world power to use the Internationally agreed standard is appalling and does lead to misunderstandings around the world.

I recall back in 1978 flying a F4 in Germany when we suffered a major malfunction with a distinct possibility of having to eject. We declared a Mayday and diverted to the closest airfield. All was going well until on long finals to land when there was a off-putting amount of chat on frequency.

The American Flight Lead was arguing with ATC that his 4 ship had a range slot and his flight should be given priority over inbound traffic. When ATC explained that Mayday 01 was on long final cleared to land he replied “is Mayday 01 his callsign or does he have some kind of problem?”

I could not listen any longer and turned the radio volume fully down and continued to land. This Flight Lead showed a complete lack of understanding of the meaning and use of MAYDAY.

In later years I taught at a TFTS in the USA. Even then the students were taught to declare an IFE (In Flight Emergency) instead of Mayday and PAN. My students were all German and so we ensured that they were taught correctly.

When will they ever learn?
A story from 42 years ago, of a zero SA player, followed by guys doing what they were taught?

In this instance the crew landed a heavily damaged (stricken?) aircraft, from a midair collision, in a field, and had clear, and understood communication with their ATC unit.

If there was a miscommunication or confusion I could understand the dilemma...
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 16:00
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Originally Posted by nipva View Post
I am surprised that no one has commented on how fortunate the F35 pilot was on being able to eject. His canopy must have been very close to being the point of impact on his frame. For this to escape damege one can surmise that a possible scenario was too much overtake followed by a bunt under the Hercules wing with the twin fins being the possible scythes. .
There is no way of knowing from these photos what attitude the aircraft came together in.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 17:13
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Angry

Originally Posted by monkey416 View Post
the whole mayday vs declaring an emergency discussion is ridiculous. who cares.
These are life-threatening situations being discussed and examined here, with a bleeding obvious Murphy, Gotcha, Swiss-cheese* moment staring the industry in the face.

Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.**

When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...."

*delete/insert colloquialism of choice

**for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 17:49
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I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T!
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 18:04
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I'll bet AF447 used amazing R/T!
They certainly didn't. Read the audio transcript. Slack RT, slack cockpit discipline and then....
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 18:13
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During my PPL training in UK in the 60s, whilst flying solo, I had a technical problem. I didn't waffle, I just declared PAN-PAN-PAN and got the immediate assistance a teenager needed ... even if it required someone in the Oxford circuit to land and get an Instructor into the Tower to tell me what to do!

I was relieved, and grateful, for the automatic response from the correct and published R/T call.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 18:29
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flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.

There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards.

As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell.
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 18:59
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Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post
flighthappens,

The story maybe 42 year old but the lesson is still there. You make your comments with a usual Aussi lack of understanding as to what has been said.
Yawn.

Originally Posted by Dominator2 View Post

There is absolutely no criticism of the way the C130 crew handled their emergency, however, there is an ongoing problem with the US Military failing to conform to Internationally agree standards.

As regards Tanker Joins, I have done as many as most and without the help of a "flight path marker". If the correct techniques are taught and followed AAR is not a dangerous event. It can become "almost" as commonplace as takeoff and landing. All piots should understand how to recognise a pending collision and how to avoid it. Of course, this accident may have been caused by something else. Only time (and a thorough investigation) will tell.
The point that an single US guy couldn’t grasp the significance of a Mayday, on one occasion, 42 years ago, doesn’t mean that every USAF driver has a similar lack of airmanship. It’s also the point that what they are taught may not be perfect per ICAO regulations but by and large remains effective at highlighting their comm.

I’ve had the privilege of working with many different communities around the world. They all achieve end effects in different ways. Sometimes it is easier to believe that things may be not wrong, but different. I doubt you are going to get much traction with CSAF telling 42 year old dits on PPRuNe.

Your last paragraph is completely irrelevant. You admit yourself that you don’t know what has caused the coming together, so why the pontification?


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Old 5th Oct 2020, 19:41
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Originally Posted by Downwind.Maddl-Land View Post
These are life-threatening situations being discussed and examined here, with a bleeding obvious Murphy, Gotcha, Swiss-cheese* moment staring the industry in the face.
Everyone should care; nobody appears to; right up until there is a "We are at take-off" moment.**
When everyone (especially on here!) will bleat: "Well that should have been closed-out YEARS ago...."
*delete/insert colloquialism of choice
**for the hard of understanding - the last transmission from a certain KLM flight at Tenerife 27 Mar 77.
"We are at take-off" was the last transmission, but lest we forget, the cockpit voice recorder continued:
Flight engineer: Is hij er niet af, die Pan American? [Is he not clear, that Pan American?]
Captain: Jawel. [Oh yes. (emphatic)]
12 seconds later:
Captain: Oh shit!
(sound of collision)
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 19:44
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If the FAA or DoD imposed specific alternative procedures for Emergency or Urgency calls within US airspace that differed from ICAO ones then there would be justification for using such variations. They do not, nor do most other national regulators AFAIK. So what justification is there for the use of such variations? The whole point about standardisation is that whatever one's mother tongue, whatever airspace you are transiting, you will understand what is said to you, and others will understand what you are saying to them. In an emergency this isn't just convenient, it is vital.

The irritation on this side of the pond is when such variations are exported into non-US airspace. We Brits may well irritate with our tendency to idiosyncrasy but we realise that an emergency is no time to start expressing it. You stick to the internationally agreed rules and hope that others do too. I would respectfully suggest that even if it is tolerated within the US, not sticking to those rules is a bad habit to get into. There are parts of the world where your colloquialisms will be misunderstood and the help that could have been forthcoming is lacking for want of a MAYDAY!
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Old 5th Oct 2020, 19:49
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive.
That would be because you have no idea how the US military are trained, crab.
From Primary training, Mayday is taught as the call you make when declaring an emergency when not in radar contact.
The following is from PAT Pub # 764, page 7-19, which reflects Navy/Marine training (CNATRA).
I'll let USAF folks speak for themselves.
706. EMERGENCY VOICE REPORTS
Emergency voice reports will be made in the IDENTIFICATION, SITUATION, POSITION, AND INTENTION (ISPI) format.
In a non-radar environment (VFR, squawking 1200, and not in communications with RDO), emergency reports of an immediate or serious nature are preceded by the word "MAYDAY." Repeating MAYDAY three times is the widely accepted method of clearing the frequency for an emergency voice report. An example of an emergency voice report in a non-radar environment is as follows:
"MAYDAY! MAYDAY! MAYDAY! [Call sign], engine failure, approximately 8 miles southeast of Evergreen at 2,500 feet, executing a controlled ejection between Castleberry and five lakes area."
In a radar environment (Radar Contact), or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO, standard procedure for a distressed or urgent situation is to declare an emergency.
An example of an emergency voice report in a radar environment or positive radio contact with a tower/RDO is as follows:
"[Call sign] is declaring an emergency. Chip light, 5 miles east of Brewton at 4,500 feet. Executing a Precautionary Emergency Landing at Brewton."
So there you go, crab; now you actually know something that you didn't know before.

Westy, if you've got further traffic that would be cool, as I recall that you've had some experience on the controller side of this.
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