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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

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USMC Mid-Air - F-35/KC-130

Old 2nd Oct 2020, 07:12
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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Having seen the latest picture I too wondered if any pf the prop blades or other debris had penetrated the fuselage. We usually tanked straight and level as I recall

(185 kts ?) except for the Falklands airbridge when we did the toboggan descent when tanking the freighter.. As far as I can recall all joins for fuel were commenced on the starboard wing where the Co could see them.
It must be remembered that the RAF C130 tanker only had one (80 ft) hose on the centreline through an aperture in the closed cargo door whereas the US C130 tankers use wing pods I believe.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:07
  #82 (permalink)  
 
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How easy is it to tank a fast jet from a Herc compared to something like a KC135 or KC10? Idly wondering whether this incident is in part a consequence of the USMC's desire to maintain an independent tanking capability.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:21
  #83 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
How easy is it to tank a fast jet from a Herc compared to something like a KC135 or KC10? Idly wondering whether this incident is in part a consequence of the USMC's desire to maintain an independent tanking capability.
Not just USMC, USN must have the same issue. How practical would it be to have a carrier-borne boom equipped tanker?
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:28
  #84 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by F-16GUY View Post
Why would this be an issue? Like any other rejoin to any position, astern or to the wing, you always put your flight path marker below, beside or behind to aircraft you are joining, until very close and close to co-speed. If you hit it while on your way to the astern position, you would probably also hit it if cleared to the inside wing during a turning rejoin....
As with everything, itís not an issue if you donít screw up. The point is that a straight join to an astern position provides more opportunity to screw up than a turning join or a straight join to echelon, especially as the final stage of a probe-and-drogue join involves a climb to co-altitude. This naturally encourages the flight path marker to be placed a little closer to the tanker than is probably the case when joining to the boom waiting position.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 08:47
  #85 (permalink)  
 
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We could tank all the RAF FJ except the Lightning and Jaguar as I recall. Largest I was involved in was the Nimrod. It looked very large and close from my position !
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 09:10
  #86 (permalink)  
 
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Managed to find a pic of a RX in the 'waiting room' before being cleared astern to commence tanking
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 10:59
  #87 (permalink)  
 
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The point about joining the tanker in echelon means that you can come steaming in and then put the speedbrakes out whilst, as you pull level with the flight deck, announcing you've finally arrived from 70 miles away. Useful in EMCON silent conditions.

Surely you do have to be more circumspect when joining directly astern.

I remember during GW1 on a night towline in NW Saudi, a US Navy S-3 Viking had joined astern, plugged in and started taking fuel before the Eng had noticed. Had he joined on the left and moved abeam the flight deck, I would suggest it would have been safer.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 11:35
  #88 (permalink)  
 
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Is this definitely a mid air collision, or could the Herc have had an engine fail, with the resulting debris catapulting back to take out the aircraft behind.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 11:57
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Originally Posted by MATELO View Post
Is this definitely a mid air collision, or could the Herc have had an engine fail, with the resulting debris catapulting back to take out the aircraft behind.
The LiveATC recording linked above has the Herc crew saying they'd had a midair with the F35 and had lost 2 engines. I'd say that was definitive.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:00
  #90 (permalink)  
 
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The picture overcomes a thousand words:

Double, simultaneous, uncontained failures in 3 and 4, going forward and shredding each individual prop?

I don't think so.

IG

Oops, beaten by Easy Street
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:12
  #91 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
How easy is it to tank a fast jet from a Herc compared to something like a KC135 or KC10? Idly wondering whether this incident is in part a consequence of the USMC's desire to maintain an independent tanking capability.
The J model herk is not bad as it can maintain a higher speed than the earlier models. With the earlier model herk you knew you were topped off when you stalled! Tactical tanking especially at low altitude in turbulence was always interesting. The F18 AOA probe was right under the refueling probe. Missing the basket sometimes resulted in knocking off the AOA probe which promptly went down the right intake! Missing the steel basket on the KC135 could result in a smashed canopy or holes in the aircraft. Disconnecting from that basket could be more critical than connecting. If you were not exactly in the position the basket would free stream in as you unplugged the basket would swing wildly around. Easiest by far is the KC10 with a big soft fluffy basket!
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:24
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Afraid so TD, there are emergencies, and then there are emergencies, to differentiate there are two distinct words to inform the world of your state, MAYDAY and PAN. The first is self evident, PAN calls take priority over every other calls on the radio except MAYDAY calls and should be used when someone is not in grave an imminent danger and does not require immediate assistance, but has an urgent situation. The urgent situation may be the result of degradation of aircraft systems , you spot a boat, vehicle or aircraft needing urgent assistance, you get lost or need navigation assistance, when you need to break rules to stay safe etc etc. In the civil world ICAO doesn't recognise the word "Emergency", cases of pilots using "Emergency" or other phrases other than "pan-pan" and "mayday" have caused confusion and errors in aircraft handling by ATC.

https://www.hkatc.gov.hk/HK_AIP/aic/AIC21-12.pdf
As this occurred in the US, between a US crew and a US controller, the most effective way to get the controllerís attention is with the use of the term declaring an emergency.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:31
  #93 (permalink)  
 
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W-C, if you transmit `Mayday x3`,you should get everybody`s attention..!!
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:45
  #94 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by West Coast View Post
As this occurred in the US, between a US crew and a US controller, the most effective way to get the controllerís attention is with the use of the term declaring an emergency.
100%!

I've time on the C130, and its a shame we are playing semantics when the Herc guy looks like he did such a great job! But... I'll bite! - after decades of sometimes pedantic sim sessions with a HK airline, I had cause to declare a Pan in Anchorage airspace. The controller simply asked " Err, are you declaring an Emergency?"..... K.I.S.S.

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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:56
  #95 (permalink)  
 
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Probably better to leave it at that; let the USA sink back into its isolationist torpor and prevent air traffic in either direction. Put a big impermeable bubble over the whole country.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 12:58
  #96 (permalink)  
 
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Bubble? You might like that until you need their military assistance.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 14:56
  #97 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 70 Mustang View Post
Typical on PPRuNe....

some people canít live without trying their best to find something, anything wrong with what others pilots say or do.

He might have been under a tiny bit of stress, he got the message across. They did a damn good job.

but some cannot leave it be.

nit pick is the phrase.

Boy you got that right. Can't believe some of the stuff I see in this forum. A giant smoking hole in the ground but damn the guy was perfect in his radiotelephoney right til impact. Whew!
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 15:13
  #98 (permalink)  
 
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The outrage bus must be full to bursting by now - goodness me some people need to get a sense of perspective.

When I first mentioned the lack of MAYDAY call it was an observation made after listening to the audio clip - I think the crew did a really great job getting the aircraft down safely - but the controller asks the pilot if he is declaring an emergency, something that would be made blindingly obvious by the use of MAYDAY.

I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive.
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 15:35
  #99 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sycamore View Post
W-C, if you transmit `Mayday x3`,you should get everybody`s attention..!!
Screaming holy shit I had a midair would also get everyone’s attention.

Feel free to dissect what many of the pedants here believe is a systemic training issue of declaring emergency vs mayday/pan, however on that day, the phraseology that was most common to both the flight crew and the controller was “declaring an emergency”
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Old 2nd Oct 2020, 15:41
  #100 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
The outrage bus must be full to bursting by now - goodness me some people need to get a sense of perspective.

When I first mentioned the lack of MAYDAY call it was an observation made after listening to the audio clip - I think the crew did a really great job getting the aircraft down safely - but the controller asks the pilot if he is declaring an emergency, something that would be made blindingly obvious by the use of MAYDAY.

I have no idea why the US Military have a different RT procedure to the rest of the world (including the FAA) but it seems counter-productive.
One couldnít be blamed for believing you were driving that bus given you raised the R/T issue.
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