Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters
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" What kind of future incident would generate the need?"
Lets face it any spending on Irish defence should be
1. Security services
2. fishing patrols
......................................
999. fast jets
Lets face it any spending on Irish defence should be
1. Security services
2. fishing patrols
......................................
999. fast jets
NickPilot's model reminded me of a suggestion in the Irish Examiner (at the time of the 2015 white paper) that the Irish Government could look at the (then) recently retired RoKAF Hawk mk.67s (T-59s)
The Government doesn’t have to buy Typhoons like the ones scrambled by the British to intercept the Russian bombers to be effective, especially as they cost over €70m each. Jets are available much cheaper.
If the Government wants to penny-pinch, it could buy the Czech-made Aero L159 or ex-Korean AF BAE Hawks.
The L159 is a subsonic aircraft with similar speed to an airliner, but, critically, it can go much higher than commercial aircraft, is faster than the Russian TU95, and has an integrated radar.
If we wanted something a bit more prestigious, the KAIT50-Golden Eagle fighters could be picked up for €20m each.
However, it’s estimated in some military circles that an €80m investment in the air corps would be sufficient to provide the force with proper jets and radar defence capabilities.
For this, it could get six jets, all auxiliary equipment, support services, armaments, and proper ground radar capabilities.
From How much to protect skies above Ireland? Irish Examiner 11FEB2015
If the Government wants to penny-pinch, it could buy the Czech-made Aero L159 or ex-Korean AF BAE Hawks.
The L159 is a subsonic aircraft with similar speed to an airliner, but, critically, it can go much higher than commercial aircraft, is faster than the Russian TU95, and has an integrated radar.
If we wanted something a bit more prestigious, the KAIT50-Golden Eagle fighters could be picked up for €20m each.
However, it’s estimated in some military circles that an €80m investment in the air corps would be sufficient to provide the force with proper jets and radar defence capabilities.
For this, it could get six jets, all auxiliary equipment, support services, armaments, and proper ground radar capabilities.
From How much to protect skies above Ireland? Irish Examiner 11FEB2015
The problem with any of the light strike type solutions is that Ireland has two different requirements from a fighter.
One is for overland/East Coast QRA which occasionally has to CAP a major event. A FA50 style machine could do this reasonably well.
The second requirement is for a West Coast/over the Atlantic QRA. Here you’re talking about a different beast altogether as an air policing fighter will be required to get airborne, travel to intercept ( for example) a Tu 142 and squawk beside it for a while until it does whatever it is they do over the Porcupine Banks and goes away. In terms of a Cold War analogy, you need a Lightning on the east coast and a Mig 31 on the West.
Obviously, finances will dictate a one type fleet. They’ll also dictate what an acceptable cost per hour will look like, so a compromise will almost certainly keep leading you back to a Gripen. Now start talking about a tanker, primary radar, maybe an Erieye or two...
In any case, the big shark to jump isn’t ‘Ireland buys a fighter’ , it’s trying to retain the pilots and techs that are there now. Even in the current market, a failure to maintain crew levels will scupper the best plans for the future.
One is for overland/East Coast QRA which occasionally has to CAP a major event. A FA50 style machine could do this reasonably well.
The second requirement is for a West Coast/over the Atlantic QRA. Here you’re talking about a different beast altogether as an air policing fighter will be required to get airborne, travel to intercept ( for example) a Tu 142 and squawk beside it for a while until it does whatever it is they do over the Porcupine Banks and goes away. In terms of a Cold War analogy, you need a Lightning on the east coast and a Mig 31 on the West.
Obviously, finances will dictate a one type fleet. They’ll also dictate what an acceptable cost per hour will look like, so a compromise will almost certainly keep leading you back to a Gripen. Now start talking about a tanker, primary radar, maybe an Erieye or two...
In any case, the big shark to jump isn’t ‘Ireland buys a fighter’ , it’s trying to retain the pilots and techs that are there now. Even in the current market, a failure to maintain crew levels will scupper the best plans for the future.
The stated need is to replace the PC-9Ms in the CAS (COIN?) role with a possible intercept capability added on. A Bear or Backfire isn't going to materialise near / in Irish airspace without having been followed for a long time, I would have thought the same would apply to a hijacked civilian aircraft - it is in everyone's interest to pass the information on to those who can act on it. We aren't talking about finding an LO threat. If the Irish government goes down this road, aren't they likely to the throw the money at a ground radar capable of being used for GCI to visual range using a fairly basic (no AI radar) aircraft capable of carrying short range AAMs and a cannon (with hardpoints for mudmoving ordnance)? Sounds a bit like a modern version of the Hawk T1A "experiment" (without F-4s or F.3s to lead them 
) or a Hawk 200 successor if you did want AI radar. I am aware a certain TD reacted strongly to RAF QRA aircraft operating in Irish airspace - allegedly without first informing the Irish (ATC?) authorities so Typhoons handing over to a less capable aircraft and shadowing from outside Irish airspace would perhaps have political mileage.
However, Declan275 has probably hit the nail on the head.
) or a Hawk 200 successor if you did want AI radar. I am aware a certain TD reacted strongly to RAF QRA aircraft operating in Irish airspace - allegedly without first informing the Irish (ATC?) authorities so Typhoons handing over to a less capable aircraft and shadowing from outside Irish airspace would perhaps have political mileage.However, Declan275 has probably hit the nail on the head.
well if you are looking at a one n blue moon interception job you don't need more than a handful of aircraft - a couple available (so maybe 6-8 in total) would do
The second requirement is for a West Coast/over the Atlantic QRA. Here you’re talking about a different beast altogether as an air policing fighter will be required to get airborne, travel to intercept ( for example) a Tu 142 and squawk beside it for a while until it does whatever it is they do over the Porcupine Banks and goes away. In terms of a Cold War analogy, you need a Lightning on the east coast and a Mig 31 on the West.
Just like it has every right to fly off US coasts and just like US Aircraft have every right fly off Russian air space.
Paying millions for a QRA will be for what purpose ? Joining Nato air forces going up to take photos and wave ?
There’s also the airliner lost comms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else.
My own view on the whole argument for an interceptor is that it’s about air policing rather than old school ‘they shall not pass’ stuff. In this example, an Irish jet would replace the RAF one that goes up towards a non squawking, non talking aircraft in Shannon FIR and gives the ‘ aircraft at position xxx, height xxx, heading xxx please say your intentions’ spiel that you occasionally hear on VHF so that everyone else can avoid them.
There’s also the airliner lost coms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else.
There’s also the airliner lost coms/ damage assessment type of flight that are rarer. As the service to the state is currently provided by the RAF on a the basis of a bilateral agreement with the UK, de facto, there is a recognised need for it at Govt level. The question is do we want to have sovereign control over it like nearly everyone else.
The rules and procedures for international airspace have, unsurprisingly, rules and procedures in order to ensure safety for all users. The repeated concern with Russian activities is that they do not follow the international rules and procedures for the safe transit of international airspace; so triggering a QRA response and even rerouting of civilian traffic.
The Russian activities are designed to be an irritant by deliberately operating in an unsafe manner, against the international treaties that it is a signatory of.