Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Ireland Considers Purchase of AD Fighters

Old 29th Jun 2020, 05:00
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: usa
Posts: 11,644
OK, Did I miss a threat briefing on a Viking or Laplander airborne invasion?
42... is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 07:21
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Wilds of Warwickshire
Posts: 180
Originally Posted by 42... View Post
OK, Did I miss a threat briefing on a Viking or Laplander airborne invasion?
No, but to be fair, prior to 2020, Ireland was being regularly over-run by hordes of baseball and golf shirt wearing people reportedly emanating from some large island located out to the west!
KiloB is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 08:45
  #43 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,507
No, but it would allow them to drop the current, mainly unadvertised, agreement whereby the RAF has overflight rights and performs the Air Policing role inside Irish airspace.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations
ORAC is online now  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 09:08
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Ireland
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by air pig View Post
They can't even provide night fixed wing aeromedical capability.
Where are you getting that information - they are more than capable of providing the service.


What makes you think they were stolen - as neutral country during the war, the arrangement with the British government was that any aircraft which force landed on the island was kept and the crew returned.
Martmcc is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 09:20
  #45 (permalink)  
Gnome de PPRuNe
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 56
Posts: 6,614
Also posted in the concurrent Vampire thread but as there has been some discussion of historic Irish AC aircraft, I thought it might also be of interest here. An ex Irish AC Vampire won the Jet Class Gold at Reno in 2015; unfortunately it was badly damaged the following year in a forced landing following a canopy failure and a subsequent engine problem; apparently the wreck is still dumped at Stead Airport.
treadigraph is online now  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 09:26
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: North West
Posts: 167
Originally Posted by NumptyAussie View Post
Maybe they have descided to make a play for the Isle of Man?
The Isle of Man pays the UK around £2 million per annum for defence. Out of that they get the Red Arrows at the TT and the occasional visit from bomb disposal for WW1 ordnance washed up on the north coast from Beaufort's Dyke.

If Ireland wants AD who will train the pilots?

Simple solution is to strike a similar deal to the Isle of Man. It would be in the UK's interests too since the invasion threat from Eire is nil.
Wig Wag is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 09:30
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 17,233
Originally Posted by ORAC View Post
No, but it would allow them to drop the current, mainly unadvertised, agreement whereby the RAF has overflight rights and performs the Air Policing role inside Irish airspace.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland–NATO_relations

And they get upset about those.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/iris...ers-off-coast/
NutLoose is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 09:37
  #48 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,507
If Ireland wants AD who will train the pilots?
I’m sure the cousins would provide the training, and doubtless perhaps even the airframes and an exchange pilot or two, as foreign military aid......
ORAC is online now  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 11:20
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 1,785
The queue will go right around the block -a USAF fighter pilot in Ireland - they'll think they've died and gone to heaven..............
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 12:50
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 60
It's old news

This is an old story. The 2015 Irish Defence white paper included:

Air Combat
The existing Pilatus PC9 aircraft provide a very limited air to air and air to ground capacity and these are due for replacement in 2025. The development of a more capable air combat/intercept capability will be considered as part of the White Paper update
In the last 20 years Irish defence spending has fallen dramatically in GDP terms from 0.8% to 0.27% mainly as a reflection of increased GDP as in cash terms it has nearly doubled to EUR1.08bn. Were it a Scandinavian or Central/Eastern European country of similar size I'm sure it would have had a modern(-ish) air defence capability. Clearly Ireland's geographical position isolates its from any direct state level threat and enables it to leverage RAF QRA. However, UK military involvement in Irish air space obviously carries historical/political baggage. The acquisition of an effective radar and involvement in the management of interception by friendly air arms would seem the obvious solution. To avoid the politically unacceptable NATO label, an EU based defence arrangement would have made sense if the UK was still a member. It will be interesting to see what impact, if any, the new Fianna Fáil–Fine Gael–Green Party government has on Defence spending and priorities.

I am unfamiliar with the intricacies of Irish Defence politics but the Equipment Development Plan (EDP) is part of the first iteration of a recently adopted 6-yearly SDSR type process. The process of evaluating capability gaps appears to be eminently sensible. A conditional commitment to acquiring a Primary AD Radar was made in the 2015 Defence White Paper "Should additional funding, beyond that required to maintain existing capabilities become available, the development of a radar surveillance capability is a priority for the Air Corps." Although the White Paper stated the PC-9s were due for replacement in 2025, this isn't mentioned in the 2019 Update, however, the EDP lists upgrades between 2022-24 as being in the "Major platforms in planning" category.

Personally, I find how other countries do things interesting - apologies for the lack of brevity to those who don't.

The EDP is comprehensive in its scope.

The EDP is based on a rigorous prioritised examination of the range of equipment requirements to deliver on roles and associated capabilities. Prioritisation must take account of the immediacy of any operational demand as well as planning, specification, procurement, production and delivery time-frames and relevant resourcing. At any one time, there will be a balance of what is feasible within available funding and what is needed taking account of equipment life-cycles and the needs of on-going and contingent requirements.
An EDP (Equipment Development Plan) is understood to involve more than an inventory of acquisitions. It comprehends the total process associated with achieving outcomes which supply the equipment component of military capability. Thus, it is a “development” plan rather than merely a plan. This is given substance by the life-cycle process governing equipment from initial planning through to delivery into, and then sustained, in service. In all cases, the basics are identification of an existing or future capability gap; consideration of a possible appropriate equipment related response; assessment of options and determination of a recommended approach, followed by allocation of resources, procurement and acceptance into service. ... Contingent requirements also include those which are less immediately likely but which, particularly at the more extreme end of the defence spectrum, provision must be made.
Future programmes at pre planning stage

Beyond the very significant range of projects already underway or in existing planning streams, the EDP highlights others that are expected to progress in future phases of the plan. This is not an exhaustive list but gives an indication of the scale and range of programmes that will enter planning. At this stage there is not a definite commitment to pursue, or an associated time-frame, for these. These include a primary radar system, air combat interceptor, replacement of the two Coastal Patrol vessels, acquisition of diver based mine counter-measures and counter improvised explosive device equipment, field catering equipment, various vehicles such as replacement mini-buses, military trailers and an armoured ambulance as well as various surveillance and explosive ordnance disposal equipment.

A number of weapon systems are also earmarked in this category of pre-planning such as upgrade of the 105mm light artillery gun, the 60mm mortar, under-barrel Grenade Launcher M203 Replacement, RBS 70 MANPAD replacement Programme, Steyr Rifle - Mod 14 Upgrade - Under Barrel Rail and Foregrip.
SLXOwft is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 14:51
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by Martmcc View Post
Where are you getting that information - they are more than capable of providing the service.
No they are not as IAC/Coastguard have a problem of not having enough aircrew to comit plus the aircraft, a L45 is dual roled where as the contracted company aircraft is dedicated, and the contract is still in progress.

https://www.thejournal.ie/air-ambula...56309-Jun2018/

Last edited by air pig; 29th Jun 2020 at 15:05.
air pig is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 15:09
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 845
Originally Posted by Out Of Trim View Post
Our Defence system is an "Insurance Policy." Who knows who might become a threat now or in the future. I'm glad that we ensure that we protect our way of life come what may.
Its a shame that that pesky virus snook under our radar and wreaked some much havoc. Its done more damage than any likely foe ever could.

I'm sure lots of questions will be asked about our defence spending in due course, given recent events. And rightly so.
dead_pan is online now  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 15:18
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Its a shame that that pesky virus snook under our radar and wreaked some much havoc. Its done more damage than any likely foe ever could.

I'm sure lots of questions will be asked about our defence spending in due course, given recent events. And rightly so.
The MoD may actually get more as they showed up the civilian sector for some of the bumbling incompetants they are.
air pig is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:05
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,739
I suspect that the Irish (and EU allies) are possibly also contemplating the worst case scenario of no-deal Brexit, or the UK government refusing to implement the divorce deal obligation to enforce an EU border in the Irish sea. Quite understandable that the Irish (and EU) might not be so keen on UK continuing to look after Irish air-defence in that scenario.

This little announcement might even be a tactical sucker punch to later announce that the EU Defence Agency will form a air defence wing, and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland (just as the Baltic states benefit from rotating NATO cover).

Trim Stab is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:17
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
I suspect that the Irish (and EU allies) are possibly also contemplating the worst case scenario of no-deal Brexit, or the UK government refusing to implement the divorce deal obligation to enforce an EU border in the Irish sea. Quite understandable that the Irish (and EU) might not be so keen on UK continuing to look after Irish air-defence in that scenario.

This little announcement might even be a tactical sucker punch to later announce that the EU Defence Agency will form a air defence wing, and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland (just as the Baltic states benefit from rotating NATO cover).
Unless they have suitable radar cover and a C3 system, is that idea going to work
air pig is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:21
  #56 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
Age: 71
Posts: 3,447
and rotate various EU AIr Forces through Ireland
Could be fun. One recalls when LFA 19 (?) was set up to legalise low flying in the Province. On day one a Belgique 104 (?) who clearly hadn't read the small print (NI based aircraft only) tried to book in.

We should have let him......
teeteringhead is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:30
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: The Beloved Province
Age: 58
Posts: 12
'Could be fun. One recalls when LFA 19 (?) was set up to legalise low flying in the Province. On day one a Belgique 104 (?) who clearly hadn't read the small print (NI based aircraft only) tried to book in.'

When I was at Aldergrove, there was a story doing the rounds (probably apocryphal) that a pair of German Tornadoes managed not only to book into LFA 19, but actually did a spot of low flying through the Province!! Now that would have made Gerry Adams and his 'chums' spill their Guinness!!
OJ 72 is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:38
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,739
Originally Posted by air pig View Post
Unless they have suitable radar cover and a C3 system, is that idea going to work
That’ll be announced later.. When you have the ERG and even Gove claiming that it will be “impossible” to enforce the EU border in the Irish sea, you can bet the EU planners will be making a plan to ensure that it is...

They won’t make any precipitate or bellicose announcements, which is why I think this Irish announcement is closely coordinated with EU. The divorce deal is an international treaty and EU will be fully authorised to enforce it by UN and even US (given heavy Irish support in Congress).
Trim Stab is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:47
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: liverpool uk
Age: 63
Posts: 1,204
Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
That’ll be announced later.. When you have the ERG and even Gove claiming that it will be “impossible” to enforce the EU border in the Irish sea, you can bet the EU planners will be making a plan to ensure that it is...

They won’t make any precipitate or bellicose announcements, which is why I think this Irish announcement is closely coordinated with EU. The divorce deal is an international treaty and EU will be fully authorised to enforce it by UN and even US (given heavy Irish support in Congress).
Eu planners and a plan then enforcement. Look at the C-19 response by the eussr and then there is there so-called bail out plan and possible debt mutualisation. Taking them months to do anything.
air pig is offline  
Old 29th Jun 2020, 16:51
  #60 (permalink)  

Gentleman Aviator
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Teetering Towers - somewhere in the Shires
Age: 71
Posts: 3,447
And if there were "military issues" between (non-NATO) Eire and (NATO) UK, would not Article 5 apply???
teeteringhead is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.