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BA to RAF

Old 13th May 2020, 11:08
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Buy a Golf instead.
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Old 13th May 2020, 12:32
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Well said BV
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Old 13th May 2020, 15:45
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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I think the biggest problem the RAF currently has - or will have - when it comes to manpower, is the current halt on recruitment. Before the whole lockdown started, the RAF was down 6% on manning. Add to that the approximately 48 people who leave every week, which is 350 people and counting. The manpower shortage will only get worse.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
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Old 13th May 2020, 16:00
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I suspect that if senior enough people want this to happen, then it will. Conversely, if it is found to be too difficult/expensive/etc, it will be quietly shelved, and a great opportunity for both parties will have been missed.
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Old 13th May 2020, 17:39
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sky Sports View Post
I think the biggest problem the RAF currently has - or will have - when it comes to manpower, is the current halt on recruitment. Before the whole lockdown started, the RAF was down 6% on manning. Add to that the approximately 48 people who leave every week, which is 350 people and counting. The manpower shortage will only get worse.
I appreciate that courses are still starting, but all applications to join are hold, meaning there will be a massive backlog to get through when recruiting resumes. This may have an impact on future basic courses/IOT, with courses have zero candidates loaded.
Actually, IOT has been effectively shut to new entrants since the start of 2020 and wonít start until Sep 20. That is nothing to do with CV19 and was totally planned - for something called Project MERCURY which is redesign of IOT to make it a modular course. That way we can tune modules for peoplesí previous experience - so a Cpl/Sgt may only need to do the 2nd and 3rd terms of IOT, as an example and a FS and WO only the final term. So actually all of the IOTs were front loaded and so CV19 has, believe it or not, had pretty much zero effect on IOT. The virus has seen short pauses in flying training and current estimates are around 3 months slip across the lot. In the grand scheme of things, not a big effect - so the FJ pipeline will still be around 5(ish) years, the helo pipeline around 4 years and the multi-engine pipeline closer to 3 years. So about 1-1.5 years longer than planned for those at the beginning of training. Sadly, for those just finishing on the FJ pipeline right now they are still the Ď6 year generationí from the knock on effects of the SDSR10 cull and the early challenges during the fleet changeovers under UKMFTS. But CV19? Not really an impact at all from what Iíve heard.
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Old 13th May 2020, 18:02
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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LJ

Heís a witch. Burn him. Buurrrnnn hhhiimmm...

Come on, you know as well as I do that youíre not allowed to let facts and reason get in the way of a good whinge.

Shame on you.

BV
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Old 13th May 2020, 18:19
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Important to realise that P3 recruiting outweighs P2 (and thus IOT entrants) by a significant number.

We need the P3 taps to keep flowing as well.
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Old 13th May 2020, 18:36
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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BV
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Old 13th May 2020, 22:12
  #69 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
If thereís one thing that is drilled into you when you join the military it is to employ initiative and problem solve.

The lateral recruitment plan may not be easy but we all know a solution can be found.

I think the involved parties should be applauded for seeing an opportunity and running with it. If it doesnít work out then nothing ventured nothing gained.

I know many people in the civilian aviation sector and I feared for all of them when this all kicked off. Especially those that were Ďlast iní.

If this scheme can keep just one of my former colleagues from claiming universal credit then itís a job well done in my mind.

Of course itíll be a pay cut for a BA Captain to rejoin the RAF (they know that) but for the money theyíre likely to earn I guess they would gladly peel potatoes for 3-4 years rather than drive a delivery truck for 1/4 of the money.

So from me itís a big thumbs up for those trying to make it work and a big thumbs down to all the whingers who can only see the negatives.

BV
Now why does this all confirm my feeling that BV would be a really good guy both to fly and serve with? A dark blue view I know, but I do wish that we could do something similar to what's being proposed.

Jack
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Old 14th May 2020, 08:51
  #70 (permalink)  
 
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Only Pilots?

Many of the comments in this thread seem to assume that only BA pilots will be seconded, and that these personnel will be used to fly planes...

From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):

"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...

So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.

In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
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Old 14th May 2020, 10:40
  #71 (permalink)  
 
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TiC post.

Are there slots for pilots in the predator fleet?

Will they be allowed to wear their 4 barred BA jackets at beer calls?

What does instant expert Laura Kuensberg think about it all?

.....these and many other questions 😉



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Old 14th May 2020, 12:24
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by oldmansquipper View Post

What does instant expert Laura Kuensberg think about it all?
Wash your mouth out !!!
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Old 14th May 2020, 13:16
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Photoplanet View Post
Many of the comments in this thread seem to assume that only BA pilots will be seconded, and that these personnel will be used to fly planes...

From the Daily Mail (and I do apologise for using this as a source):

"BRITISH Airways pilots and other aviation staff could be loaned to the RAF for up to four years........Staff could be seconded in flying and groundbased roles"...

So no official guarantee of a flying seat at this point.

In addition, could this move be seen as 'State Aid' to BA? The wording on any contract would have to be very carefully drafted to avoid other airlines crying foul.
I too would question why British Airways seems to be the centre of interest here, especially when BALPA is quoted as being heavily involved. They draw their membership from all over the UK airlines together with the attendant subscriptions, so why all this talk of British Airways rather than British Airlines? We all know the old saw of it being the British Airways Line Pilots Association but it seems there may be some truth in that from what we are being told. Obviously those who have recently left the RAF to the join the airlines may be a more practical choice for the RAF to draw from, and perhaps the majority of them joined BA. I don't know if that is the case but if it is then the emphasis should be on those in that category and not on any particular airline.

As to State Aid, BA have had more of its share of that over the years not least from not being broken up into separate long haul and short haul companies when privatised to even out more the competition with the so called 'Independents'. There is also the near monopoly of the LHR Slots of course. The combination of those two silver spoons meant that for years contractions in the industry meant that Independent pilots lost their jobs while BA ones kept theirs. Is this scheme designed to continue that process and if so, why?

Can we take it as read that when the Daily Mail is quoted a standard apology is implicit in that? I grow tired of seeing it repeated ad nauseum here...
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Old 14th May 2020, 13:46
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Who is Laura Kuensberg ?
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Old 14th May 2020, 15:14
  #75 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
I too would question why British Airways seems to be the centre of interest here, especially when BALPA is quoted as being heavily involved. They draw their membership from all over the UK airlines together with the attendant subscriptions, so why all this talk of British Airways rather than British Airlines? We all know the old saw of it being the British Airways Line Pilots Association but it seems there may be some truth in that from what we are being told. Obviously those who have recently left the RAF to the join the airlines may be a more practical choice for the RAF to draw from, and perhaps the majority of them joined BA. I don't know if that is the case but if it is then the emphasis should be on those in that category and not on any particular airline.

As to State Aid, BA have had more of its share of that over the years not least from not being broken up into separate long haul and short haul companies when privatised to even out more the competition with the so called 'Independents'. There is also the near monopoly of the LHR Slots of course. The combination of those two silver spoons meant that for years contractions in the industry meant that Independent pilots lost their jobs while BA ones kept theirs. Is this scheme designed to continue that process and if so, why?

Can we take it as read that when the Daily Mail is quoted a standard apology is implicit in that? I grow tired of seeing it repeated ad nauseum here...
Christ on a bike, quit the bloody conspiracy bullshit. The reason it is BA mentioned is because this initiative started with the BACC not with Big BALPA, ie BA pilots came up with the idea and made the approach to the MOD to test if this was even possible. It is highly unlikely that this initiative will be restricted to just BA pilots, but the right to return to BA and to maintain seniority within BA is a BACC negotiated thing with BA and will not apply to other companies who will have to negotiate with their own companies. It is at the very first tentative steps and is by no means a done deal. Why don’t we wait and see if anything comes of it before jumping in with our size 12s, ranting about stuff that isn’t decided, or true, but that fits our own prejudices. It’s almost as if you want to see fellow aviators out of a job.
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Old 14th May 2020, 16:23
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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JT:-
It’s almost as if you want to see fellow aviators out of a job.
In what way pray? Just because I've suggested that this initiative is biased towards BA that means that I'm opposed to any UK airline pilots being kept employed thanks to it? How does that work then? As you say, it was devised by the BACC whose remit is to protect BA pilots. In this matter I'm sure that they are in lock-step with BA as it means their pilots will be available again to them when needed rather than having to be made redundant. You may well say that BALPA will ensure that other pilots employed by other airlines will be equally open for selection should the scheme go ahead. My reply would be that all pilots are equal under BALPA, but some are more equal than others. I would strongly suggest that other companies' PLCs start seriously lobbying BALPA now, and not wait around as you suggest to see what comes of it. It would be nice to think that at least some of their pilots might retain their jobs this time instead of the default we are all so used to.
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Old 14th May 2020, 17:04
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chugalug2 View Post
JT:-


In what way pray? Just because I've suggested that this initiative is biased towards BA that means that I'm opposed to any UK airline pilots being kept employed thanks to it? How does that work then? As you say, it was devised by the BACC whose remit is to protect BA pilots. In this matter I'm sure that they are in lock-step with BA as it means their pilots will be available again to them when needed rather than having to be made redundant. You may well say that BALPA will ensure that other pilots employed by other airlines will be equally open for selection should the scheme go ahead. My reply would be that all pilots are equal under BALPA, but some are more equal than others. I would strongly suggest that other companies' PLCs start seriously lobbying BALPA now, and not wait around as you suggest to see what comes of it. It would be nice to think that at least some of their pilots might retain their jobs this time instead of the default we are all so used to.
I'm sure they will if it suits them and their respective CCs are on the ball, but good on the BACC for developing an opportunity that may protect some BA pilots and might protect some other company's pilots. But let's not let that get in the way of having a bash at BA and the BACC part of BALPA.

BALPA is made up of the pilots in a company and its up to them to come up with ways of protecting their jobs. Unless those companies are prepared to offer a right to return then this is an irrelevant project as the opportunity to return to the military is there for any one with the right qualifications.
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Old 14th May 2020, 18:06
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Chugalug Iím not sure what your point is. You are hell bent on making this out as Big Balpa looking after only BA pilots. It has nothing to do with Big Balpa. If you read the replies you are getting, the reality of the initiative has been explained to you.

I get the feeling you just want to stir up shit about your own perceived injustices regarding Balpa and itís motives. At a time like this I can assure you of one thing - no one cares.
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Old 14th May 2020, 18:58
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I'm quite sure that this idea wasn't the sole inspiration of the BACC. Any ex-RAF airline pilot faced with an up to date knowledge of pilot and staff shortages in the Service, and faced with likely redundancy from their own company, would have pondered about the chances of re-joining, whether on a temporary or semi-permanent basis. He or she might even have followed up on a personal basis to contacts within the RAF or via their own company PLC. The difference here is the clout of the BACC with its own company and its ability to formulate policy with it. It is interesting that you both use the term 'Big BALPA' to differentiate it from the BACC (which presumably is 'Little BALPA'?). No other PLC/CC can wield the power of the BACC, they invariably have to seek the help and advice of BALPA itself in best representing their pilots interests. But here we are led to believe that the BACC is consulting with BA and the MOD, and on behalf of who? My guess would be of BA pilots.

Can you not understand that if the PLC of any other UK airline was doing the same thing that BA pilots would be rightly outraged that a such deal was being done on behalf of the pilots of that company and not of UK airline pilots as a whole? Justice and fairness calls for this initiative to be carried on by BALPA, not the BACC, and on behalf of all UK airline pilots and not just BA ones. The real negotiation is of course not with the companies but with the MOD who will call the shots. They can choose who they please and should do. BALPA is honour bound to ensure that choice is open to all their members and not biased to any one particular company.
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Old 14th May 2020, 20:53
  #80 (permalink)  
 
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Despite the chat on here, Iím not 100% certain it was BACC who made the approach.

Iíve a feeling it was someone in company. Could be widely off the mark here, but there are a lot of people assuming it was the CC when it may not have been.
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