Lost and stolen Weapons and ammunition
The L103A2 is quintessentially a L98A2 Cadet General Purpose Rifle, but with a solid barrel and no full length firing pin (indeed the firing pin aperture on the forward face of the bolt is welded up).
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
As a result of the Police investigation into this incident, it was decided that the L103A2 is a Section 5 Firearm that has not been correctly deactivated IAW extant legislation, having no Proof House stamp (despite the fact that the weapons were never ‘deactivated’ but constructed as Drill Purpose by Heckler and Koch). This meant that, at the beginning of Mar, we ran around like one-armed paper hangers collecting the L103s and taking them back to Parent Units (and this had to be done IAW Section 5 Firearm rules, ie Driver and escort for the weapon carrying vehicle, plus an escort vehicle). That was a fun day, NOT!
I have a recollection of seeing a .22 L1A1 SLR but I'm not sure when on where.
I think it may have been at the end of one of our CCF field days when the RAF Section returned to school after running around the woods doing escape and evasion exercises all day. The Army had sent the infantry to school to do training with the Army cadets and when we got back there were very large bangs coming from our 22 rifle range. On investigation we found the Army using 80mm Carl Gustave anti tank rocket launchers in there ……. with the sub caliber training device fitted of course. Used a 7.62 size round with a rounded hollow copper cap, which produced a very big bang similar I was told, to the effect of the real thing. I was very lucky and despite my blue uniform they let me have a go I still have the plywood tank target that I even manged to hit, one of my treasured possessions!
I think the .22 L1A1 was there as well, I remember being told that it had a specially lightened breech block for the automatic reload to work with the .22 ammo, but that they still got a lot of stoppages with it.
I think it may have been at the end of one of our CCF field days when the RAF Section returned to school after running around the woods doing escape and evasion exercises all day. The Army had sent the infantry to school to do training with the Army cadets and when we got back there were very large bangs coming from our 22 rifle range. On investigation we found the Army using 80mm Carl Gustave anti tank rocket launchers in there ……. with the sub caliber training device fitted of course. Used a 7.62 size round with a rounded hollow copper cap, which produced a very big bang similar I was told, to the effect of the real thing. I was very lucky and despite my blue uniform they let me have a go I still have the plywood tank target that I even manged to hit, one of my treasured possessions!
I think the .22 L1A1 was there as well, I remember being told that it had a specially lightened breech block for the automatic reload to work with the .22 ammo, but that they still got a lot of stoppages with it.
Is a possible solution, so that the cadets get at least a bit of shooting, for one of the instructors to get a Firearms Certificate ( restricted to authorised ranges only) for someone else’s locally owned .22 ?
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
A firm in the USA remanufactured a run of the .22 conversion kits for the SLR a few years ago, was a rumour early in 2019 that they were going to do another run of them, but not seen whether that happened or not. There's at least one of their kits working very well in a UK straight-pull spec SLR that I know of.
The reason the L98A2 was procurred was that H&K refused to continue to support the L98A1 (which was apparently a waste of space anyway - I've never seen one so can't comment).
There is no problem with cadets using a Section 5 Firearm if correcty supervised by Current, Competent, and Qualified RCOs/ECOs (IAW Army Code 71855-C Cadet Training - Ranges), and having been taught and tested by Current, Competent, and Qualified SAAIs (IAW Army Code 71807-C The L98A2 Cadet GP Rifle (5.56mm) and Associated Equipment).
In RAFAC there are further limitations applied via ACP18 Vols 1 - 3 (itself written by an SASC Officer), whch lays down things like the Progressive Shooting syllabi foe the various cadet WS.
Currently, within RAFAC we have the L144A1 coming on-stream replacing the old No8 rifles. This has been problematic in that the rifle is particularly unserviceable and breaks easily. It's basically an American 'plinking' rifle fitted with target Rifle sights and was, in my view, bought down to a budget as the cheapest contender for the No8 replacement.
There are also the LPWs (Locally Purchased Weapons ie Sqn owned weapons). There is a provision within the Firearms Act 1968, as amended 1997, that allows cadet units to own Section 1 Firearms and Shotguns (subject to the relevent storage regulations) without a FAC, as long as they are recorded on a form known as an ACF20 (copies of which are held by the Sqn, Wg HQ, HQAC, and the local CivPol Firearms unit). The ACF20 acts in lieu of a FAC and allows units to hold weapons and purchase ammunition.
The next blockage is that you are not allowed to fire Service Issued ammunition through LPWs, despite the fact that it's the same Eley Club that you can buy from your local gunsmith!
In terms of .22" shooting, historically it was only Sqns with a (serviceable) range (or access to) that shot. Many sqns didn't shoot .22" outside of Annual Camps (and that's become more problematic with with things like the requirement for a Range Recce, before a RSD (Range Safety Document - ie the paperwork for the planned shoot) is produced.
In my Wg (of 30 Sqns) I have 8 Sqns with .22" ranges (whether indoor or tube), and 3 Sqns with access to a range. Accordingly I wrote a basing plan around this in summer 2017, only to be told by RFCA that I would get a mere 6 armouries alarmed. This in itself is not an insurmountable problem, but it is an Admin burden in ensuring that .22" shooting (when it comes back on line) is spread fairly and eqitably across the Sqns in the Wg. Effectively this will mean W/E shoots as opposed to Parade Night shoots (the latter can be covered off using the air rifles).
Last edited by ExAscoteer2; 1st Jan 2020 at 16:01.
All very sad. I recall the days when the local army cadets would roll up at our open shoots with their No.8s, and walk away with the prizes. (A few shillings to have the trophies engraved). I shall never forget one young lad, name of MacDonald and 14, who'd never shot at an outdoor range, never mind 100m. Two sighters, adjust, and shot 98 on an Olympic target. All this, on top of the Air Cadet glider fiasco. Someone needs to get a grip. What next? Sea Cadets with no canoes?
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Here is the L1A1 conversion kit
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The L1A1 conversion kit has been withdrawn.
ATC units wanting to conduct L98A2 training are welcome to contact their local CCF unit who can probably help. Unfortunately internal politics sometimes prevent this.
ATC units wanting to conduct L98A2 training are welcome to contact their local CCF unit who can probably help. Unfortunately internal politics sometimes prevent this.
Is a possible solution, so that the cadets get at least a bit of shooting, for one of the instructors to get a Firearms Certificate ( restricted to authorised ranges only) for someone else’s locally owned .22 ?
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
For instance I’ve got a CZ452 .22 and I’m more than prepared to loan it to the local ATC or whatever on an occasional basis. It’s got a fairly large scope and a sound moderator but would at least give the kids the opportunity of firing live ammo.
I suppose I could go and supervise myself but suspect I’d have to do the Disclosure and Barring Service thing first.
Another potential problem that is on the horizon is the amendment or withdrawal of S11(4) of the Firearms Act, the part relating to Miniature Rifle Ranges. This has in the past enabled cadet units to acquire non-service smallbore firearms and ammunition without the need for a Firearm Certificate. If it is withdrawn and nothing replaces it, then it could cause significant problems as cadet units would have to be made exempt of the requirements for Home Office Approval in order to qualify for a no cost FAC (at present). The can of worms all this could open is rather large.
YS
What we are doing in my Wg is to share training with local ACF Units via their Coy HQs (an ACF Coy is about the size of an average ATC Sqn!) and (generally) have 'proper' armouries (as opposed to Benwelds).
Having said that, as a SAAI, I have taught ATC, ACF, RM cadets, CCF, as well as Welbeck students.
While problematic, L98A2 training is not insurmountable, but it is now an increased Admin burden.
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I am surprised how much I have learnt about the SLR I used for so many years since this thread started, from the reasoning for the grooves in the side of the working parts to prevent dirt fouling the mechanism, through the differences and also why the 7.62 round was foisted on us by the US when we had a more suitable round originally envisaged for it.
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Nutty.
For all things FAL
https://www.youtube.com/user/Forgott...arch?query=FAL
Oh you may like this one too EM-2
Great channel, but you can spend days in here!!!
Oh just for fun.
For all things FAL
https://www.youtube.com/user/Forgott...arch?query=FAL
Oh you may like this one too EM-2
Great channel, but you can spend days in here!!!
Oh just for fun.
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This was the film I watched, fascinating.
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"It's my train set and what I say goes"
Yeah watched that couple of weeks ago too, very interesting how the US Army "manipulated" their way to an inferior 5.56 cartridge [same with EM-2 0.208]..
Yeah watched that couple of weeks ago too, very interesting how the US Army "manipulated" their way to an inferior 5.56 cartridge [same with EM-2 0.208]..
For eg, at the last 3 CISSAMs (Cadet Inter Service Skill At Arms Meetings - ie a W/E of Service Rifle Competition, usually at Pirbright) the ATC has won all bar one of the prizes.
Similarly at the last 3 ISCRMs (Inter services Cadet Rifle meetings - ie a 3 day Target Rifle Competition at Bisley), the ATC has by far the most cadets within the Cadet 100 (top 100 scorers).
At my daughter's school the CCF Air component folded last year - no flying/gliding or shooting and lack of committed staff. The Army section does well and it's the school's vehicle to having a top shooting team.
Oh, and the No 8 .22 target rifle was specifically built as a cadet target rifle. Although they had the Lee Enfield bolt action, the rifle was not a conversion.
Oh, and the No 8 .22 target rifle was specifically built as a cadet target rifle. Although they had the Lee Enfield bolt action, the rifle was not a conversion.
The fore end design of the No.8 also ended up being the basis for that used later on the 7.62 L39, L42, Envoy and Enforcers.