UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents
As ever, the chimps are just trying to grandstand - not least by bleating on about the size of the British Army and the nominal reduction to 72000. As Wallace says, there's no point in having bodies if they're not properly equipped and as ever, neither CGS nor Healey can answer the following :
1. Why do you think the British Army should be made larger, when - even at the proposed 72000 figure - it's still larger than the Bundeswehr?
2. Why should the British Army be configured to defend Central Europe - at the expense of wider capabilities - when the denizens of Central Europe can't be arsed to do so?
1. Why do you think the British Army should be made larger, when - even at the proposed 72000 figure - it's still larger than the Bundeswehr?
2. Why should the British Army be configured to defend Central Europe - at the expense of wider capabilities - when the denizens of Central Europe can't be arsed to do so?
Thread Starter
"Why should the British Army be configured to defend Central Europe - at the expense of wider capabilities - when the denizens of Central Europe can't be arsed to do so?"
Because since the great days of Henry VII it has been wise British policy to do your fighting as far east of Calais as possible rather than doing it in Kent or Sussex? I'd agree though that generally we'd rather pay others to do the fighting
Because since the great days of Henry VII it has been wise British policy to do your fighting as far east of Calais as possible rather than doing it in Kent or Sussex? I'd agree though that generally we'd rather pay others to do the fighting
But to answer the question, because famously no military conflagration in Central Europe has ever spread to affect us here in the UK.
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Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Because since the great days of Henry VII it has been wise British policy to do your fighting as far east of Calais as possible rather than doing it in Kent or Sussex? I'd agree though that generally we'd rather pay others to do the fighting
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Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
"Why should the British Army be configured to defend Central Europe - at the expense of wider capabilities - when the denizens of Central Europe can't be arsed to do so?"
for the record I only quoted Boffin's question in post #1102.
as to post #1105
"because famously no military conflagration in Central Europe has ever spread to affect us here in the UK." -
depends what you mean by "affect" - I thought Germany invading Poland, Austro Hungary invading Serbia and the various Wars in Napoleonic times all made a direct impact on the UK
"Why should the British Army be configured to defend Central Europe - at the expense of wider capabilities - when the denizens of Central Europe can't be arsed to do so?"
for the record I only quoted Boffin's question in post #1102.
as to post #1105
"because famously no military conflagration in Central Europe has ever spread to affect us here in the UK." -
depends what you mean by "affect" - I thought Germany invading Poland, Austro Hungary invading Serbia and the various Wars in Napoleonic times all made a direct impact on the UK
I thought the sarcasm caption was illuminated for the last sentence of #1105. Did I misread it? The Sheldon Copper gene is strong in me.
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"Sheldon Copper" 
(Ninthace, I assume Cooper not Copper?)
Next House of Commons Defence Committee Session on Aviation Procurement is on Tuesday (25 April 2023) @ 10.30 J
Next House of Commons Defence Committee Session on Aviation Procurement is on Tuesday (25 April 2023) @ 10.30 J
- Subject: Aviation Procurement : Are air force gaps leaving UK exposed? MPs to question Minister Alex Chalk
- Witness(es): Alex Chalk KC MP, Minister for Defence Procurement, Ministry of Defence; Air Marshal Sir Richard Knighton KCB, Deputy Commander Air Capability, RAF, Ministry of Defence; Vice Admiral Richard Thompson, Director General Air, DE&S, Ministry of Defence
Session webpage (The transcript will be made available here)Topics likely to be explored include how the Ukraine conflict has impacted the government’s approach to employing air power, and whether accepting capability gaps in aviation could leave the UK exposed in a future conflict.
In the Defence Command Paper, published in 2021, the government announced cuts to aircraft numbers. MPs are likely to ask the Minister whether the upcoming refresh of the Command Paper will consider reversing these cuts, in light of a changed picture for European security.
Alongside senior military leaders, the Minister may also give evidence on the impact of cuts to the UK’s Air Mobility and Airborne Early Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) fleets, and whether delays to pilot training are likely to continue.
https://committees.parliament.uk/eve...dence-session/
Live feed
https://parliamentlive.tv/event/inde...0-429c89c147a0
Last edited by SLXOwft; 25th Apr 2023 at 13:20. Reason: Session Cancelled
Thread Starter
This mornings "Times"Ben Wallace to push ahead with British Army cuts
Ben Wallace will resist pressure from senior generals and push ahead with cuts to the army as part of an overhaul of the armed forces next month.
Next month the Ministry of Defence will publish its defence command paper, which sets out the government’s long-term ambitions for the military. Under the plans being drawn up in Whitehall, the army will be rebalanced to reduce the number of infantry in favour of more artillery. In 2021 the defence secretary announced plans to reduce the number of tanks from 227 to 148 and shrink the army to 73,000 troops, its smallest size since the Napoleonic era.
The decision was made before the Russian invasion of Ukraine and proved controversial with Tory MPs. General Sir Patrick Sanders, the chief of the general staff, said that pursuing the cuts at a time of war in Europe would be “perverse”.
But with Nato allies including Poland, Germany and Finland increasing spending on their land armies, ministers believe that Britain is not under significant pressure to change course and can modernise the armed forces with investments elsewhere.
The MoD is facing a squeeze on its budget because the Treasury awarded the department a £5 billion increase in spending over the next two years, about half of what had been requested to manage inflation. Of that figure, £3 billion has been set aside for Britain’s nuclear submarine programme, limiting resources for the army and the RAF. The remaining £2 billion will be used to replenish stocks of weapons given to Ukraine.
“The defence secretary has directed that the army is to be protected from further reductions and it is for the other services to manage their finances,” a defence source said.
Senior figures in the MoD believe the war in Ukraine has exposed the vulnerability of tanks to shoulder-launched weapons such as Nlaws and Javelins, justifying the original decision in 2021 to upgrade only 148 Challenger 2s to Challenger 3s. “We have too much infantry — a legacy of the counter-insurgency wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We need more artillery. The jury is out on whether you need main battle tanks,” a Whitehall source said.
“The main lesson from Ukraine is you need mass,” one army source said. “The truth is we don’t have enough infantry and we don’t have enough artillery.” The source also said it was naive to think that the war in Ukraine justified the decision to cut tanks and suggested poor Russian tactics explained why the Kremlin had lost over half its operational fleet in Ukraine. “If you’re being hit by Nlaws in an urban environment, your tank is probably in the wrong place,” the source said.
Ben Wallace will resist pressure from senior generals and push ahead with cuts to the army as part of an overhaul of the armed forces next month.
Next month the Ministry of Defence will publish its defence command paper, which sets out the government’s long-term ambitions for the military. Under the plans being drawn up in Whitehall, the army will be rebalanced to reduce the number of infantry in favour of more artillery. In 2021 the defence secretary announced plans to reduce the number of tanks from 227 to 148 and shrink the army to 73,000 troops, its smallest size since the Napoleonic era.
The decision was made before the Russian invasion of Ukraine and proved controversial with Tory MPs. General Sir Patrick Sanders, the chief of the general staff, said that pursuing the cuts at a time of war in Europe would be “perverse”.
But with Nato allies including Poland, Germany and Finland increasing spending on their land armies, ministers believe that Britain is not under significant pressure to change course and can modernise the armed forces with investments elsewhere.
The MoD is facing a squeeze on its budget because the Treasury awarded the department a £5 billion increase in spending over the next two years, about half of what had been requested to manage inflation. Of that figure, £3 billion has been set aside for Britain’s nuclear submarine programme, limiting resources for the army and the RAF. The remaining £2 billion will be used to replenish stocks of weapons given to Ukraine.
“The defence secretary has directed that the army is to be protected from further reductions and it is for the other services to manage their finances,” a defence source said.
Senior figures in the MoD believe the war in Ukraine has exposed the vulnerability of tanks to shoulder-launched weapons such as Nlaws and Javelins, justifying the original decision in 2021 to upgrade only 148 Challenger 2s to Challenger 3s. “We have too much infantry — a legacy of the counter-insurgency wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We need more artillery. The jury is out on whether you need main battle tanks,” a Whitehall source said.
“The main lesson from Ukraine is you need mass,” one army source said. “The truth is we don’t have enough infantry and we don’t have enough artillery.” The source also said it was naive to think that the war in Ukraine justified the decision to cut tanks and suggested poor Russian tactics explained why the Kremlin had lost over half its operational fleet in Ukraine. “If you’re being hit by Nlaws in an urban environment, your tank is probably in the wrong place,” the source said.
Soon the only Colour left to be trooped will that of the 1st Field Accountants.
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This is the ultimate proof that the Tories cannot be trusted with the defence of this country.
Reducing front line infantry, reducing main battle tanks, withdrawing Hercules without replacement, withdrawing Tranche 1 Typhoons without replacement.
Unbelievable.
Reducing front line infantry, reducing main battle tanks, withdrawing Hercules without replacement, withdrawing Tranche 1 Typhoons without replacement.
Unbelievable.
Thread Starter
"We have too much infantry "
Jeez - have they looked at the fighting in places like Bakhmut? It's Stalingrad stuff............
Jeez - have they looked at the fighting in places like Bakhmut? It's Stalingrad stuff............
Government - "We need to give more kit to Ukraine."
MoD - "We've already given them the surplus created by the last cuts."
Government - "Cut more Infantry, create more surplus."
Rinse, wash, repeat.
MoD - "We've already given them the surplus created by the last cuts."
Government - "Cut more Infantry, create more surplus."
Rinse, wash, repeat.
I have feint hopes that our elected representatives will do some pushing on the effects of HM Treasury's Strategic Defence and Security Review Refresh in the sessions scheduled over the next month.
The cancelled oral evidence session of the Defence Commitees's investigation into Procurement has been rescheduled for Wednesday, there is also a sub-committee oral evidence session on DES.
https://committees.parliament.uk/eve...dence-session/
14.00 (Private Session)
14.30 (Public Session)
James Cartlidge MP, Minister for Defence Procurement
Vice Admiral Rick Thompson, Director General Air at Ministry of Defence
Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton KCB, Chief of the Air Staff Designate at Ministry of Defence
Defence Sub-committee hearing morning of 17 May 2023 - Defence Equipment and Support - Oral evidence
https://committees.parliament.uk/eve...dence-session/
Inquiry
This inquiry will examine the work of Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S), an arm’s length body of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), which manages a range of defence equipment and service purchases for the UK’s armed forces. The Committee will consider the strengths and failings of DE&S’ current approach to defence procurement, and whether there are lessons to be learned.
09.30
Lucia Retter Research Lead at RAND Europe
Matt Uttley Chair in Defence Studies at King’s College London
Professor John Louth, independent author and defence analyst
10.30
Sir Bernard Gray, former Chief of Defence Materiel and author of Defence Reform
Upcoming Defence Committee Oral Evidence Sessions
10.30 23 May
10.30 6 June
10.30 13 June
The cancelled oral evidence session of the Defence Commitees's investigation into Procurement has been rescheduled for Wednesday, there is also a sub-committee oral evidence session on DES.
In the Defence Command Paper, published in 2021, the government announced cuts to aircraft numbers. MPs may ask the Minister whether the upcoming refresh of the Command Paper will consider reversing these cuts, in light of developments in European security since the paper’s publication.
14.00 (Private Session)
14.30 (Public Session)
James Cartlidge MP, Minister for Defence Procurement
Vice Admiral Rick Thompson, Director General Air at Ministry of Defence
Air Chief Marshal Sir Richard Knighton KCB, Chief of the Air Staff Designate at Ministry of Defence
Defence Sub-committee hearing morning of 17 May 2023 - Defence Equipment and Support - Oral evidence
https://committees.parliament.uk/eve...dence-session/
Inquiry
This inquiry will examine the work of Defence Equipment and Support (DE&S), an arm’s length body of the Ministry of Defence (MoD), which manages a range of defence equipment and service purchases for the UK’s armed forces. The Committee will consider the strengths and failings of DE&S’ current approach to defence procurement, and whether there are lessons to be learned.
09.30
Lucia Retter Research Lead at RAND Europe
Matt Uttley Chair in Defence Studies at King’s College London
Professor John Louth, independent author and defence analyst
10.30
Sir Bernard Gray, former Chief of Defence Materiel and author of Defence Reform
Upcoming Defence Committee Oral Evidence Sessions
10.30 23 May
10.30 6 June
10.30 13 June
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
NEW: A "refresh" of a core blueprint for the size & shape of the UK armed forces - the Defence Command Paper Refresh - is set to be published by the end of June, the new defence procurement minister has said. " The aim is by the end of June," @jcartlidgemp told @CommonsDefence.
Also reconfirmation the announced 74 F35s will all be Bs. Decision on how many more (if any) and what type to be made in the middle of decade. ACM Knighton stated 138 still 'feasible'.
Only watched about a third of yesterday's session but so far CAS(designate)'s performance has been impressive.
Only watched about a third of yesterday's session but so far CAS(designate)'s performance has been impressive.
Thread Starter
NEW: A "refresh" of a core blueprint for the size & shape of the UK armed forces - the Defence Command Paper Refresh - is set to be published by the end of June, the new defence procurement minister has said. " The aim is by the end of June," @jcartlidgemp told @CommonsDefence.