UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents
Thread Starter
"The other problem is that the NHS has become the national religion and anyone suggesting it gets the root and branch overhaul and refocus it requires is treated as a heretic who should be burned at the stake. So it will continue to be the super massive blackhole of public expenditure."
true - but that isn't going to change so we have to live with it.
true - but that isn't going to change so we have to live with it.
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The NHS is actually one of the cheaper healthcare systems in the world as a proportion of GDP.
Talk of top 1% paying huge portion of income tax misses the point. Wealthy people don’t have incomes. They only have debt.
Talk of top 1% paying huge portion of income tax misses the point. Wealthy people don’t have incomes. They only have debt.
Thread Starter
"The NHS is actually one of the cheaper healthcare systems in the world as a proportion of GDP."
yes but no UK politician will tell the truth - the UK gets second class treatment for third class costs
yes but no UK politician will tell the truth - the UK gets second class treatment for third class costs
FB
Thread Starter
"Having been a recent staying guest of the NHS I am strongly of the opinion that we get first class treatment for an absolutely bargain basement price!"
I think my quote came from the Kings Trust who were bench marking a wide range of outcomes and costs across the world to be fair.
I've seen absolutely superb service for a (British Resident) visiting family member in Italy - which was far better than the later, post op, treatment she received in the UK.
On the other hand I just came across a quotation from Any Warhol describing his treatment after he was shot by a jealous girl friend- "I'm lying there dying and the first thing they ask me is can I sign a check"
I think my quote came from the Kings Trust who were bench marking a wide range of outcomes and costs across the world to be fair.
I've seen absolutely superb service for a (British Resident) visiting family member in Italy - which was far better than the later, post op, treatment she received in the UK.
On the other hand I just came across a quotation from Any Warhol describing his treatment after he was shot by a jealous girl friend- "I'm lying there dying and the first thing they ask me is can I sign a check"
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So I think the truth is that NHS services can be extraordinarily good and appallingly bad. But suggesting that it is expensive, or that private would be better / cheaper is just spin propagated by vested interests.
Thread Starter
Discussions about the NHS are all well and good but I suspect the costs of re arming will fall elsewhere
You can forget about the Pension Triple Lock and lower income tax for a start. A Tax on internet transactions is a certainty as well I'd guess
The question is also who will get the extra cash - almost certainly the Army and maybe a few more F-35's - they'll keep a small presence East of Suez but there won't be enough money to expand that capability
You can forget about the Pension Triple Lock and lower income tax for a start. A Tax on internet transactions is a certainty as well I'd guess
The question is also who will get the extra cash - almost certainly the Army and maybe a few more F-35's - they'll keep a small presence East of Suez but there won't be enough money to expand that capability
You'd like to think they'd uplift the total number of AH, given the Ukraine scrap has so far been predominantly armour centric. Maybe some more tanks to hold the ground outside the urban areas too.
Attack helos? I think this war has demonstrated so far that they are a bad idea in a proper shooting war. So far there has been photographic evidence of 2x Mi-24 attack helicopter, 2x Mi-35M attack helicopter, 3x Ka-52 'Alligator' attack helicopter damaged/destroyed on the Russian side.
This resource links to photos and videos of these and more:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
Here is a Russian mechanical palm tree meeting an untimely end: https://fb.watch/bz6nyJpx2H/
This resource links to photos and videos of these and more:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
Here is a Russian mechanical palm tree meeting an untimely end: https://fb.watch/bz6nyJpx2H/
Thread Starter
Yes - especially as the numbers are falling due to the overhaul/reworking operation
Attack helos? I think this war has demonstrated so far that they are a bad idea in a proper shooting war. So far there has been photographic evidence of 2x Mi-24 attack helicopter, 2x Mi-35M attack helicopter, 3x Ka-52 'Alligator' attack helicopter damaged/destroyed on the Russian side.
This resource links to photos and videos of these and more:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
Here is a Russian mechanical palm tree meeting an untimely end: https://fb.watch/bz6nyJpx2H/
This resource links to photos and videos of these and more:
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/0...equipment.html
Here is a Russian mechanical palm tree meeting an untimely end: https://fb.watch/bz6nyJpx2H/
Arguably anything airborne in a proper shooting war is a bad idea with the amount of surface to air threats available. I think I'd rather be in the weeds able to put some real estate between me and the baddie than pinged miles out at FLXX and have to rely on some afterburner and DAS.
DASS are really the only things that are going to save you these days as you can’t guarantee terrain masking with high-end MANPADS anymore or good look down-shoot down PD radars supporting high-end staring array IR missiles or active radar seeker heads. So, flares, LIRCM, jamming pods, smart DRFM dispensables like BriteCloud and Towed Radar Decoys are the choice of champions. Also, if you have them, give yourself a bit of room to manoeuvre rather than bouncing off the the sea/ground like one of these chaps! 
Sadly a couple of Middle East scuffles where the enemy were equipped with sharpened mangoes has left us barely equipped much better than the end of the Cold War some 30 years ago. Admittedly some things have moved on as some of those of the Cold War generation have kept pressing for the capabilities, but this recent war means that we need to rethink and stop taking so-called ‘capability holidays’. You need to be ready for high end war fighting as we head into this century that will become more apparent as the world scraps over natural resources and the final bits of territory that lay unclaimed. The so-called “peace dividend” is over and our capabilities will need to be able to operate and survive in the kind of environment we are seeing in Ukraine - for some of us then this type of war-fighting is still very much alive in our minds, for those in the Services from the past 20-25 years then it isn’t.
It also won’t be a quick fix - it takes time to train people, to build aircraft and to modify them. So really the Integrated Review needs to be cancelled and started again. The Herc J needs saving until A400M is ready and in sufficient numbers, the Wedgetail order needs to go back to 5 aircraft and those undergoing build need hastening, the Tranche 1 Typhoons need to stay to do UK/FI QRA and the FGR4s saved for NATO ops whilst either more Typhoons are procured or F35s (A models now make a lot of sense!). We need to get the Voyagers modified for boom tanking. We need to buy the >20 Protectors promised in SDSR15 and not the reduced numbers in the IR. The Puma has been saved, but the Griffin is slated to go. The NMH solution needs sorting out and as demonstrated above it needs to come with a proper high-end DASS from day one.
Sadly a couple of Middle East scuffles where the enemy were equipped with sharpened mangoes has left us barely equipped much better than the end of the Cold War some 30 years ago. Admittedly some things have moved on as some of those of the Cold War generation have kept pressing for the capabilities, but this recent war means that we need to rethink and stop taking so-called ‘capability holidays’. You need to be ready for high end war fighting as we head into this century that will become more apparent as the world scraps over natural resources and the final bits of territory that lay unclaimed. The so-called “peace dividend” is over and our capabilities will need to be able to operate and survive in the kind of environment we are seeing in Ukraine - for some of us then this type of war-fighting is still very much alive in our minds, for those in the Services from the past 20-25 years then it isn’t.
It also won’t be a quick fix - it takes time to train people, to build aircraft and to modify them. So really the Integrated Review needs to be cancelled and started again. The Herc J needs saving until A400M is ready and in sufficient numbers, the Wedgetail order needs to go back to 5 aircraft and those undergoing build need hastening, the Tranche 1 Typhoons need to stay to do UK/FI QRA and the FGR4s saved for NATO ops whilst either more Typhoons are procured or F35s (A models now make a lot of sense!). We need to get the Voyagers modified for boom tanking. We need to buy the >20 Protectors promised in SDSR15 and not the reduced numbers in the IR. The Puma has been saved, but the Griffin is slated to go. The NMH solution needs sorting out and as demonstrated above it needs to come with a proper high-end DASS from day one.
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 5th Mar 2022 at 14:20.
DASS are really the only things that are going to save you these days as you can’t guarantee terrain masking with high-end MANPADS anymore or good look down-shoot down PD radars supporting high-end staring array IR missiles or active radar seeker heads. So, flares, LIRCM, jamming pods, smart DRFM dispensables like BriteCloud and Towed Radar Decoys are the choice of champions. Also, if you have them, give yourself a bit of room to manoeuvre rather than bouncing off the the sea/ground like one of these chaps!
Yeah I bet the guys that skimmed their wheels off the water and then watched one of their oppos pile in right in front of them must have needed a change of underpants.
Thread Starter
"to rethink and stop taking so-called ‘capability holidays’. You need to be ready for high end war fighting "
Well this happens after all big wars - the politicians want to spend the money on their constituents and voters, not large corporations or the military and they want the "dividend" as soon as possible. I don't have a big beef with that except it becomes the new normal and cuts continue until...... now for example.
You could argue that after a 10 year "dividend" you should then start to ratchet up expenditure as the next war is then probably 10-20 years away..
The Economist's graph makes the point
Well this happens after all big wars - the politicians want to spend the money on their constituents and voters, not large corporations or the military and they want the "dividend" as soon as possible. I don't have a big beef with that except it becomes the new normal and cuts continue until...... now for example.
You could argue that after a 10 year "dividend" you should then start to ratchet up expenditure as the next war is then probably 10-20 years away..
The Economist's graph makes the point
It was only a few months ago and we were told the threat was coming from China, so potentially we need the ability to fight on 2 x fronts, so some big decisions need to be made.
Even if defence spending is increased & additional aircraft, ships etc are purchased, how are we going to man them?
It takes time, money, resources to recruit, train & house personal.
Unfortunately politicians know the price of everything but the value of nothing and we may soon see how serious the consequences are of countless defence cuts.
Even if defence spending is increased & additional aircraft, ships etc are purchased, how are we going to man them?
It takes time, money, resources to recruit, train & house personal.
Unfortunately politicians know the price of everything but the value of nothing and we may soon see how serious the consequences are of countless defence cuts.
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It would be nice to see all the MBT’s upgraded and the current numbers held.