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UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

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UK Strategic Defence Review 2020 - get your bids in now ladies & gents

Old 8th Mar 2021, 09:56
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Rereading the article it seems we're really cancelling the F-35's to pour money into BAe ( a "red-wall" company of course) - it's hard to believe that the Tempest will be ready in less than 10 years .....
Asturias56, your questions are quite appropriate ..... and just to add that, no-one seems to have commented on the fact that such investment will also help BAe in the TF-X programme which will then spin technology back into Tempest....... Just a thought (or pipe-dream?) ........

Bottom line re the "cunning Tempest Plan" is "we will see"!
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 09:58
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
Rereading the article it seems we're really cancelling the F-35's to pour money into BAe ( a "red-wall" company of course) - it's hard to believe that the Tempest will be ready in less than 10 years and then God knows what the cost per unit will be - and we may have had several changes of Govt by then so its long term prospects aren't brilliant. The RAF wil soldier on with Typhoon upgrades and perhaps the occasional small buy - again good for BAE but its a major cut in planned forces for sure
Of course recalling that BAE SYSTEMS has a large manufacturing and sales base in the US (and builds parts of the F35 in the UK).
Also, that ‘older’ designs, F15, 16, 18, are now seen as proven ‘bomb trucks’, which can be upgraded cost-effectively, to meet emergent threats. A much quicker threat response based on revised internal systems, than waiting for a new platform with the similar new systems.
Bring on Typhoon upgrades; we don't need to add an ‘X’ to the title to denote excellence, cf a part-taken but then missed opportunity with Tornados various.
Agility in defence procurement, potentially lower cost, and keeps UK manufacturing (that part which will pay off the debt) as a leading world supplier.


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Old 8th Mar 2021, 12:23
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Times rumours prior to a defence review outcome are now one of the hardy perennials of British life. It'll be interesting to compare the various allegations with what actually comes to pass on the 16th, as a gauge of how seriously such articles should be taken in the future. Not that it'll make a blind bit of difference next time...
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 16:20
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Originally Posted by safetypee
Of course recalling that BAE SYSTEMS has a large manufacturing and sales base in the US (and builds parts of the F35 in the UK).
Also, that ‘older’ designs, F15, 16, 18, are now seen as proven ‘bomb trucks’, which can be upgraded cost-effectively, to meet emergent threats. A much quicker threat response based on revised internal systems, than waiting for a new platform with the similar new systems.
Bring on Typhoon upgrades; we don't need to add an ‘X’ to the title to denote excellence, cf a part-taken but then missed opportunity with Tornados various.
Agility in defence procurement, potentially lower cost, and keeps UK manufacturing (that part which will pay off the debt) as a leading world supplier.
The difference between BAES products and the others of course, being that BAES ones are ****.
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Old 8th Mar 2021, 18:00
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Sir Humphrey Appleby " The Ship of State is the only one that leaks from the top...."
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Old 9th Mar 2021, 17:50
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Originally Posted by Frostchamber
Times rumours prior to a defence review outcome are now one of the hardy perennials of British life. It'll be interesting to compare the various allegations with what actually comes to pass on the 16th, as a gauge of how seriously such articles should be taken in the future. Not that it'll make a blind bit of difference next time...
Who knows we could be getting the Tonkas and Puffer jets back!!!

FB
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Old 9th Mar 2021, 23:52
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Can anyone make sense of this? Scrap this, reduce that, promise more of those and fewer of these, how does it all hang together?
Iirc Churchill once rejected a pudding on the grounds that it had no theme. Could not Boris do the same for this hodgepodge of a 'strategic review'?
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 08:50
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Originally Posted by etudiant
Can anyone make sense of this? Scrap this, reduce that, promise more of those and fewer of these, how does it all hang together?
Iirc Churchill once rejected a pudding on the grounds that it had no theme. Could not Boris do the same for this hodgepodge of a 'strategic review'?
It reflects the man at the top - he's not a strategic thinker, he has no moral or intellectual compass, he's only interested in handing out goodies to the voters
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 11:39
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l wouldn't want his job at the moment that's for sure.............

Arc
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 12:20
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So, aside from the 'pivot to the East', we now have a Polar pivot! Article & photos etc in The Times.
Royal Navy to defend Arctic trade as ice melts

The Royal Navy will have a regular presence in the Arctic Circle to counter the Russian strategic advantage over trade routes that will open as the ice caps melt, sources have revealed.

A frigate will join a multinational task force in the Barents Sea in the coming months amid concerns that climate change could see Moscow establish control over polar regions.

Climate change will be identified as a “major security threat” in a long-awaited review of defence, security and foreign policy to be published next Tuesday. The document, Global Britain in a Competitive Age, will make clear the “threat it poses to stability across the world”, Whitehall sources said.


Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, is visiting Estonia and Norway for talks on the threat posed by Russia and climate change in advance of the COP26 climate conference in November.

Before he departed, he said: “The UK is committed to standing with our close friends in the Nordic and Baltic regions, both militarily as well as in tackling Russia’s disinformation and destabilising regional activity. In the face of challenges such as climate change and protecting the polar regions, the need for like-minded nations to come together has never been more important.”

Officials believe the effect of global warming on food security, water supply and, in turn, migration and extremism in areas such as the Sahel region of western Africa could have wide-ranging security implications for Britain.

There are also concerns that Russia and China could exploit new shipping lanes that are emerging in the Arctic Circle as the ice caps melt.

A Navy source said: “The world’s prosperity depends on trade. If trade routes open up we have to make sure they remain open and are not dominated by one or two countries.”

In September last year, two RAF Typhoons and the Type 23 frigate HMS Sutherland were sent to the Arctic Circle to assert freedom of navigation rights. It was the first time the Navy had led a multinational task group in the region in more than 20 years. British forces came as close as 50 nautical miles from the Russian coast. The Kremlin’s Northern Fleet is based in nearby Severomorsk and its Baltic Fleet is based at Kaliningrad, the Russian exclave between Poland and Lithuania.


The shipping routes opened up by the ice melting have the potential to cut travel time from China to Europe by almost half, making them very lucrative. Sources who have seen the “chunky” review, which was led by Downing Street’s foreign policy chief, John Bew, 40, said that it featured numerous references to climate change. It is billed as the most radical re-evaluation of defence, security and foreign policy since the end of the Cold War.

Lieutenant General Richard Nugee, who is leading the Ministry of Defence’s climate change policy, has been one of the officials working on the document. He has also been tasked with carrying out a review into the MoD’s immediate response to what a defence source described as “one of the most significant challenges facing both the UK and defence”.

Climate threats to security
• Higher temperatures in areas such as western Africa’s Sahel region are contributing to droughts, increasing conflicts over resources and fuelling the rise of extremist groups such as Boko Haram and al-Qaeda. Military chiefs fear these conflicts could spill over into neighbouring countries and exacerbate the migrant crisis.


• In the Arctic Circle, melting ice is opening up new shipping routes in Russia’s backyard. These lucrative new routes, which could cut transit times from China to Europe by almost half, may become contested.


Resources, equipment, funding, manpower???





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Old 10th Mar 2021, 13:54
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
it's hard to believe that the Tempest will be ready in less than 10 years and then God knows what the cost per unit will be
Try at least 14 years

'Team Tempest has previously outlined a schedule under which it will deliver a full business case proposal for the FCAS project by the end of 2025. An operational capability is expected to be available by 2035'. (UK FCAS programme poised to enter concept and assessment phase, Flight Global, 9 March 2021)
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 16:38
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Someone needs to look at a map - any trade route east of the Baltic is in Russian waters all the way
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 16:41
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The Tempest might, with luck , be developed as fast as the BAe EAP - about 4-6 years to first flight............... (I'm not going down to the bookies tho') - so it'll be about 10 years minimum before it's in service.
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 17:23
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EAP was a technology demonstrator aimed at minimising some Typhoon technical risk. A new control system in conjunction with FBW Jaguar, novel aero configuration, and materials manufacture.

If such a route was chosen for Tempest, then what would a fast track demonstrator investigate.
Considering the current trend for lengthy programs, perhaps a reduced time scale - real fast track manufacture. Alternative, an adaptive capability for emerging, as yet unforeseen roles, strategies (defence review), new technologies or weapons - aspects beyond a foreseeable stretch / update of Typhoon.
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Old 10th Mar 2021, 20:35
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If you read the write-ups on Tempest development BAe are extolling the same type of integrated CADCAM screen to production model that Boeing used with SAAB on the T-7 and being offered for the next generation fighter. So 5-6 years might be feasible.

https://www.tctmagazine.com/additive...st-components/
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Old 11th Mar 2021, 08:23
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Safetypee - I was using the EAP as an example of how fast you might be able to move from a design idea to first flight - completing it to full operational standard is another kettle of fish but whatever we think it looks like a minimum 10 year programme - over which time The RAF/RN will have to make do with 48 F-35's and upgraded Typhoons - with the possibility of some small numbers of new Typhoons to keep BAE ticking over

The leaks so far indicate to me that what is driving future orders is preserving the industrial base rather than the needs of the military
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Old 11th Mar 2021, 16:56
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
The leaks so far indicate to me that what is driving future orders is preserving the industrial base rather than the needs of the military
And how is this different from the past?
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Old 12th Mar 2021, 07:52
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It's not b- but one lives in hope. Think of all the money spent on things like the Belfast, the Nimrod and other attempts to "stay in the game"
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Old 12th Mar 2021, 09:12
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I'm just waiting for someone to pitch up with the TEMPEST test van and say, look here 'tis.
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Old 12th Mar 2021, 19:13
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Originally Posted by Asturias56
It's not b- but one lives in hope. Think of all the money spent on things like the Belfast, the Nimrod and other attempts to "stay in the game"
Mind you, the Nimrod stayed the pace alright, becoming a quite superlative Sub Hunter. The Belfast was worth it but for a different priority to defence spending which came with a change of government in 1974. The first Wilson administration having decided we had no interests East of Suez resulting in the butchering of the FAA's fixed wing fleet was followed up with the butchering of the RAF's transport fleet by the second Wilson administration. Hence bye bye Belfast, Britannia, Comet and Andover (save for 60 Sqn and the Queen's Flight).

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