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12 Squadron

Old 4th Sep 2019, 00:08
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12 Squadron

Anyone able to help? We are trying to seek support from 12 Sqn, President or equivalent, given a welfare issue with one of their ground crew not too long ago which has come to our recent attention?

Anyone know who the current President is of this illustrious Squadron?

Thanks
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 00:28
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Never heard of a squadron president. Do you mean the 12 Squadron association president? If so this chap may be able to help
[email protected]. He appears to be the current contact for the squadron association.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 00:32
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Indeed, the Sqn Assoc President. Had emailed SW but no response thus far....hence my request.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 00:35
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You will be looking for the President of the 12(B) Squadron Association rather than the Squadron itself. The Squadron has only recently reformed, so will be unlikely to have any funds to offer since they won’t have been collecting tea bar dues for very long and they can’t spend public money on veteran support.

The Association may or may not be able to help: some Squadron Associations are well-endowed, others can barely afford their annual mail shots. I’m afraid I’m not up to date on 12(B) Association matters and don’t know who the current committee members are. The Association website has not been updated since 2014 and to the best of my knowledge SW has long since moved on. @mod.uk email addresses expired a while back; you could try the same address @mod.gov.uk to see if you get him. If not there is bound to be someone on PPRuNe who can give you a name.

In the meantime: have you approached the RAFBF or RAFA? Those should be your first ports of call for any welfare issues involving current or ex-airmen. They have money for those in need, and importantly can give a professional service that the Associations emphatically cannot.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 00:53
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That's really kind of you, thank you. The issue is far more serious really. A case has come our way from a technician who served on 12 Sqn just a couple of years ago; a young man whom I have since met (a very impressive man who seeks betterment from the experience). Injured on ops and it all went wrong after that; lost his health, his career and his home (and more besides). It seems to be that every gate that should have closed, did not, returning injustice as his constant.

Hence the interest in the Sqn Association....if not there, intend approach CAS.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 01:39
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It seems that some here get their daily exercise by jumping to conclusions!

Good luck trying to help this your chap...
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 02:32
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I can confirm that SW has ‘left the building’. Your suggestion of CAS might actually work; he is an ex-OC12... however I would echo one of the posts above in that RAFA, RAFBF or SSAFA should be the first port of call.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 08:16
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Originally Posted by graham house View Post
That's really kind of you, thank you. The issue is far more serious really. A case has come our way from a technician who served on 12 Sqn just a couple of years ago; a young man whom I have since met (a very impressive man who seeks betterment from the experience). Injured on ops and it all went wrong after that; lost his health, his career and his home (and more besides). It seems to be that every gate that should have closed, did not, returning injustice as his constant.

Hence the interest in the Sqn Association....if not there, intend approach CAS.

I have sent you a private message.
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 08:56
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12 Sqn

Thank you very much to all for your support and counsel here during this thread. I think we now have a more coherent way forward as a result of this post so I am very grateful. More widely, I do hope that the 12 Sqn Association will be up and running at some point; one of our finest Number Plates? I do not under estimate the challenge in sustaining such effort but am consistently inspired by those who lead and support the 201 Sqn Association for example having seen first hand the benefit of their dedication (and the many other Sqn Associations of course).
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 09:20
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Graham,
Is there anything I can do to help? I am in Moray and ex 12 Sqn aircrew. I am also in touch with others nearby.

TL
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 12:53
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Incidentally, read this thread, it is exactly what they are there for and are in need of people to help.

RAF benevolent fund
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Old 4th Sep 2019, 13:02
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And I hate to say it but the power of the press and all that, get his story in the mainstream press.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 05:04
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12 Sqn

Thanks Nutloose and all who have assisted here. His concerns, and ours for that matter, are less so a need to address a welfare issue, more so a need to identify cause that conditioned one in the first place. It is not appropriate, in our view, to hit the Press although we are grateful for the steer, nor is it appropriate to engage the RAF BF or similar at this moment in time. The man had an awful experience with similar organisations indeed we can record that to be a recurring theme in the Veterans sector. The Veterans sector is not all that it is cracked up to be I am afraid (in such matters anyway) but that is a fight for another day.

What we wish to do is to highlight such issues at Sqn Association level as part of a more effective comms plan, along with the Families Federation and similar. Our focus, and his, is very much on cause and the opportunity to learn from it in the hope that policies shape better outcomes for those more junior over time. No amount of tea bar subs will fix this one!

We'll get there, am sure. Thank you all for your guidance.

Timelord - pm'd.

Per Ardua
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 07:46
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This puts a different perspective on the request and I respectfully suggest that it would be inappropriate to involve the Squadron Association in such a matter. They have limited reach internally (generally, few currently-serving personnel are members) but more importantly they have no standing whatsoever in the type of matters you allude to.

There is a very clear path for you to take and that is to lodge a service complaint on behalf of the individual. You may point out that this is a slow, bureaucratic process, and you would be correct. But this is a consequence of the sensitivities involved, potentially involving tacit admissions of error or liability. It would be totally improper for the current Squadron or the Association to become involved in such matters. Consider also the fact that the personnel involved may have moved to new roles.

The distinct advantage of a service complaint from your perspective is that, if a fault is uncovered, any resulting change in policy or procedure would be applied centrally with high-level oversight and would apply across the board rather than in one squadron alone.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:32
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Service Complaint

Thanks Easy, I used to 'think' as you do until I saw it differently myself as a CO, as a Respondent and as a Complainant, and having worked with the Ombudsman and the MoD (at Board and Ministerial level). Moreover, were one to take a moment to look at the Defence Select Committee Inquiry Report last month into the work of the Service Complaint Ombudsman, which is available on line under the HCSC website, the reality is there for all to see. In this particular case the man was actively discouraged from making Complaint moreover he, nor we, have any confidence whatsoever in anything coming from it either were he to now have a stab (pun intended).

You may not know, for example, that one has to queue for some 18 months to even get to the Ombudsman, after one has exhausted the internal process, and even after her investigation, were she to even commission one (it is not a right of passage), her decisions are binding but her recommendations are not. Her recommendations can be dismissed with ease by the Single Service, under a policy crafted by the Single Service. The whole system in the way it is exercised is not FFP, as the HCSC themselves record. Lessons are not learnt as lessons are not perhaps identified given the investigative failures within Defence.

The point of the Sqn Association, and the purpose of this thread, is that many Assoc members are often life members......and what is missing in this space currently is a matter of Independent representation of the Service Person. In this case there is no Sqn Association as we now know, so we are pursuing other leads - but not that of Complaint! We wouldn't expect aircrew to get into a jet knowing it to be broken.....

I only wish it were how you state it to be....one day we hope it will be!
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:35
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Service Complaint

Easy

https://publications.parliament.uk/p...889/188903.htm

Not that easy then....complete shambles actually. What should be a road to resolution is actually a train to ruination, and a long one at that.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 09:41
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Anyway, moving on as we may un-intentionally meander from the original thread, thank you to all who have guided us here. We have a number of strands to follow with the man.

We wish 12 Sqn, past, current and future members, all the very best given its resurgence - Leading the Field once again.
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