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Defence under a Corbyn Government

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Defence under a Corbyn Government

Old 2nd Sep 2019, 16:46
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
Because they are not concerned with it.
From the people I know who support Corbyn, they are all to a person also anti-establishment, anti-services, and all bar one, pro-republic & anti-monarchy.
Problem you have chap, is remain oriented liberal Tories like me. We are frankly disgusted with how the Tory party is turning out, over the result of an advisory referendum. Pretty much behaving as though they are the fourth Reich to be honest. So whilst I agree a Corbyn government would be pretty unpleasant for us all for the next 5 years, I would still prefer it to Bojo the clown et al and restore the Parliamentary democracy our institutions are based on. I’m not the only one either (90% of those not entitled to the flu jab/within 5 years of death/In receipt of the Pension therefore can sit fat and happy whilst the rest of us work trough the carnage) think Boris has done all he can to claw back enough of the Brexit Loon Party vote, but don’t think it’s enough.

I also think it will will be more likely that a Lib Dem/Labour coalition based around a second referendum will be the most likely outcome. Oh, with Sir Kier or Tom Watson at the helm. The unions will forget Corbyn the minute power is denied them by his leadership. The Tory party will be split by not only Brexit Loon Party vote dilution, but by Remain favoured constituencies that will vote en masse for Lib Dem. Wait and see what happens when clown boy expels leading Tories this week - I am guessing that a few will be wearing a yellow seagull by the end of next week. Their constituents would prefer this than than see the current bunch of careerist rank amateurs further slur the name of this country in support of an agenda very few support.





Last edited by VinRouge; 2nd Sep 2019 at 17:02.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 17:30
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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The first priority of any government is defence of the realm. I think that is neither Bozza's nor Corbyn's first priority.
Better Shy, better.

CG
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 17:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
... the result of an advisory referendum...
Whether one is a Remainer or a Leaver, you have to acknowledge that is NOT what the voters were very clearly told at the time in the Government leaflet that came through everybody's door.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 18:14
  #24 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by charliegolf View Post
Better Shy, better.

CG
Not what I wrote and not what I meant.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 20:23
  #25 (permalink)  
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Just a quicky relating to the EU but slightly off topic, can anyone recall the Red Arrows, among other, being banned from over flying the crowdline from the rear? An EU air safety regulation or other I recall.

FB
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 20:32
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by hoodie View Post
Whether one is a Remainer or a Leaver, you have to acknowledge that is NOT what the voters were very clearly told at the time in the Government leaflet that came through everybody's door.
should have read the small print. I do have a document categorically stating by Leave.EU that leaving without a deal was not an option. The Tories donít have a mandate to leave no deal and what is going on is an affront to democratic process.

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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 20:50
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
That seems sort of a replay of the US situation with Trump. He came into office facing exactly those issues.
In his case, it has taken him most of his first term just to get to a marginal situation, even though as C in C and Chief Executive, he has much more freedom than
a British PM.
So I'd expect a Corbyn administration to be deliberately boring. Just as Corbyn, an excellent tactician, has thus far been able to deflect or overcome numerous efforts to sideline him in politics, I'd expect the same in defense and intelligence.
Indeed, most likely he would start with a dollop of sugar and a dash of kindness for the Services, just to take the wind out of the sails of his more rabid opponents.
That would buy him time to come to grips with the reality of restoring a shrunken resource base and of re balancing the country's global commitments.
etudiant,

I have heard Corbyn described as many things in recent times, excellent tactician isnít however, one of them.

His approach is one of the student debating Society and is naive. His strength is in campaigning not leading or governing. Just look at the current outrage over the planned proroguation of Parliament. Corbyn has had how long to call a no confidence vote in Johnson, but he fluffed it. Not only did he fluff it, he telegraphed his intent ahead of time before then holding back for the perfect moment. Johnsonís circus must have been laughing all the way to Balmoral to speak to the Queen. They didnít need intelligence, Corbyn told them what he was thinking and then waffled.

For me, Corbyn is the puppet. McDonnell and Momentum are the real puppet masters and the threat to Defence and the nationís security. Should Corbyn ever be elected (and Iím with Vin Rouge here in thinking the Tories are currently in a hard right / populist echo chamber which may or may not reflect as much of he electorate as they imagine) I think weíll find him being sidelined by his own people to press home the full extent of Marxist Government they want.
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 21:31
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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" Defence , but why , we are all friends Comrade"
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 21:50
  #29 (permalink)  
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FB, your defence narrative is seductively plausible but pr00ne's point about the Tories is the clincher. You are quite wrong about the Invincible class. Before the Falklands the Illustrious was being proper for sale to Australia and I am not sure about Arm Royal.

You mention Sands.

I don't have the time to work out the aircraft procurement time lines or research, orders and cancellations. I know that cancelling aircraft programmes and smashing up completed aircraft is virtually criminal. Similarly suddenly scrapping an entire force is monumentally risky.

Wilson is seen to be the architect of our withdrawing from East of Suez. In fact my earlier research shows the reverse. The US, with increasing involvement in Vietnam, urged Wilson to maintain our presence East of Suez and he wanted to do that. He was also under pressure to maintain our forces in NATO.

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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 22:55
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Doobry Firkin View Post
I think there's more chance of Nigel F being elected PM than Corbyn.

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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 23:53
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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no support from Blair

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-49552403

Politics is not my forte but Mr Corbyn seems to be clutching at straws
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Old 2nd Sep 2019, 23:56
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Always find it odd Corbyn is referred to as a communist and or Marxist, when ( unless you cleave to the wise pronouncements of the Daily Heil!)he patently isnít;
As far as preferring dialogue over war fighting, really not an aspect of any politician I would hold in contempt! Even Winnie preferred ďjaw jaw to war warĒ ! Canít really think of many recent conflicts that changed anything for the better!
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 00:54
  #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Pontius Navigator View Post
FB, your defence narrative is seductively plausible but pr00ne's point about the Tories is the clincher. You are quite wrong about the Invincible class. Before the Falklands the Illustrious was being proper for sale to Australia and I am not sure about Arm Royal.

You mention Sands.

I don't have the time to work out the aircraft procurement time lines or research, orders and cancellations. I know that cancelling aircraft programmes and smashing up completed aircraft is virtually criminal. Similarly suddenly scrapping an entire force is monumentally risky.

Wilson is seen to be the architect of our withdrawing from East of Suez. In fact my earlier research shows the reverse. The US, with increasing involvement in Vietnam, urged Wilson to maintain our presence East of Suez and he wanted to do that. He was also under pressure to maintain our forces in NATO.
Pontius,

The Labour Governments of Wilson and Callaghan did make it clear they wanted to concentrate the defence effort in Central Europe and NATO. But they were at the time less easy to convince of the need for what we now call expeditionary forces. Hence the scrapping of the aircraft carriers, that was a part of the end of the East of Suez deployments. Labour in office did in fact increase the number of aircraft in Germany, they maintained the Harrier Force while assigning only two squadron number plates the third, 20, becoming an additional Strike Sqn at Bruggen with Jaguars. The trouble with Labour is, they have always been blighted by the left wing of the party, the Labour Defence Study Group I referred to was headed by Ian Mikardo MP his recommendation that the entire Tornado Force be scrapped before the first aircraft rolled off the production line was simply to divert funds elsewhere including raising the school leaving age. Callaghan paid no notice of course. When we've had a Labour government it has always been essentially the right wing of the party which has largely filled the cabinet. When Foot and Kinnock were leading they remained in opposition, this time with Corbyn....

FB
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 02:12
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Melchett01 View Post


etudiant,

I have heard Corbyn described as many things in recent times, excellent tactician isnít however, one of them.

His approach is one of the student debating Society and is naive. His strength is in campaigning not leading or governing. Just look at the current outrage over the planned proroguation of Parliament. Corbyn has had how long to call a no confidence vote in Johnson, but he fluffed it. Not only did he fluff it, he telegraphed his intent ahead of time before then holding back for the perfect moment. Johnsonís circus must have been laughing all the way to Balmoral to speak to the Queen. They didnít need intelligence, Corbyn told them what he was thinking and then waffled.

For me, Corbyn is the puppet. McDonnell and Momentum are the real puppet masters and the threat to Defence and the nationís security. Should Corbyn ever be elected (and Iím with Vin Rouge here in thinking the Tories are currently in a hard right / populist echo chamber which may or may not reflect as much of he electorate as they imagine) I think weíll find him being sidelined by his own people to press home the full extent of Marxist Government they want.
You may be quite right, but he has kept his post despite multiple efforts to supersede him or to fragment the Labor party. A man who can match Tony Blair at conniving is unlikely to be anyone's puppet imho.
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 06:31
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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I'm not a fan of JC but the historical defence budget presents an interesting picture:

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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 08:51
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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It will no longer concern me, because if that filth gets in , Iím leaving on a jet plane .
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 08:58
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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Sun Who

That is an interesting graph. However, using spend per head may be slightly misleading.

Between 1983 and 1997 the population increased by roughly 2-3 million. That will clearly affect the figures somewhat.

Now, I accept that the population also increased once Blair took over but let's not forget that his Ďreigní coincided with an almost permanent state of war on two fronts. Some might say that he had a tiny involvement in that fact.

So, whilst I am not arguing the Ďwho spends the mostí point I would be interested to see a graph that shows defence spending in real terms or something similar.

BV
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 09:08
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Meester proach View Post
It will no longer concern me, because if that filth gets in , Iím leaving on a jet plane .
What complete bolleaux!
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 09:40
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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Meester proach
I have already left, but it still concerns me for my kids, grand-kids, extended family, friends, colleagues, international relations and cultural heritage.

If you have no ties whatsoever with the UK then you are obviously free to go as you choose, and do not need to be concerned.

IG
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Old 3rd Sep 2019, 10:14
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Originally Posted by Imagegear View Post
I have already left, but it still concerns me for my kids, grand-kids, extended family, friends, colleagues, international relations and cultural heritage.

If you have no ties whatsoever with the UK then you are obviously free to go as you choose, and do not need to be concerned.

IG
one term of Corbyn will be well worth avoiding the carnage that will result from the current thick lunatic fringe in government and what they are trying to impose without mandate and on purely doctrinal lines. At least the Europe question which has been tearing the Tories apart for years will be put to bed once we realise all it delivered was a hard left government.

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