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Defence under a Corbyn Government

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Defence under a Corbyn Government

Old 26th Nov 2019, 08:40
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timelord View Post
I am no fan of Johnson or the current Conservative party and I agree with much of what woptb posts above, although I believe the “disgraced former cabinet minister involved in secret meetings.........” is actually the Home Secretary. My beef with JC is this: Disagreeing with your nations policy is fine, supporting its enemies is not.
During the Vietnam war millions of Americans opposed the war, They organised, demonstrated, protested and refused to serve. All perfectly honourable. Jane Fonda, on the other hand, went to Hanoi and was photographed smiling and supporting N Vietnamese troops. That is not fine, and it earned her the undying contempt of US servicemen who served there. JC is the same, believing in a United Ireland and peace is fine but entertaining IRA in the Houses of Parliament and demonstrating in favour of the terrorists conspiring to kill British soldiers is not.

I accept that that can be a narrow distinction, but perhaps Pr00ne and CJ can respect my point of view as I do theirs without impugning my intelligence or gullibility .
Seems reasonable, but shall be popping along to arrange your stoning later, what time would suit?
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 09:00
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you, Timelord - at last an attempt to 'reason' through a viewpoint! Unsurprisingly, I can't agree with the general thrust for one simple reason - WW2 experience. That war, and the disastrous consequences it unleashed, was predicated on a simple principle (which you appear to endorse) 'My country, right or wrong'. Its accompanying traits of Chauvinism, Jingoism, Yah-Boo, we are the greatest, politics are morally unsupportable, leaving no avenue for examination and/or criticism of National policy. Hitler and his henchmen (and women) thrived because of it.
"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history will be DOOMED to repeat them" ...aphorism?- maybe ... accurate? - most definitely!
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 10:06
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
"Those who fail to learn the lessons of history will be DOOMED to repeat them" ...aphorism?- maybe ... accurate? - most definitely!
This is so often misquoted to support an opinion. The full quote in its context is :

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana
Nothing to do with learning lessons, all to do with progress.

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Old 26th Nov 2019, 10:57
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
'My country, right or wrong'. Its accompanying traits of Chauvinism, Jingoism, Yah-Boo, we are the greatest, politics are morally unsupportable, leaving no avenue for examination and/or criticism of National policy. Hitler and his henchmen (and women) thrived because of it.
You just can’t help yourself can you. Timelord simply suggested that we politely agree to disagree with each others' political opinions, and you come back with an insulting diatribe accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being a closet Nazi!
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 11:06
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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CJ

Try using the English dictionary - not American English!
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 11:59
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Timelord simply suggested that we politely agree to disagree with each others' political opinions,
It may well be possible to interpret it so. It could also be taken as a belief that holding and displaying an opinion contrary to a temporary political stance as part of personal moral values is somehow treasonous.- the WW2 correlation may not be 'comfortable' but it is apt. Unless, that is, you find the actions of the Maquis and others similar to be equally treasonous? You may feel that ANY action taken by your own National Government is inarguably blameless ..."My country, right or wrong" ?
AL 1. To satisfy Jindabyne ... for 'maybe' read 'possibly'. As a similar life-long pedant, I feel your pain !
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 12:12
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Did the Maquis represent a National Government or a resistance movement to a National Government?

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Last edited by beardy; 26th Nov 2019 at 12:27.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 12:40
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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I think that someone has a theory that the first person to invoke Hitler in an argument looses it.

(Googled it : Goodwin’s law)

Last edited by Timelord; 26th Nov 2019 at 12:52. Reason: Looked it up
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 13:13
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cornish Jack View Post
Unless, that is, you find the actions of the Maquis and others similar to be equally treasonous?
A ridiculous analogy.
The Maquis were resisting an amoral totalitarian occupying force who did not offer any form of democratic expression to the subjugated population - indeed they would happily murder individuals, groups or whole villages who they suspected of resisting.
We are extremely fortunate that our ancestors campaigned and fought for the right to choose a Government whom the majority believe best matches their own hopes, beliefs and aspirations. Regardless of spin and media manipulation, if they fail they will face retribution at the ballot box.
We may all wish to be governed by paragons of virtue, but they do not exist. Politics is a dirty game and always has been. To climb the greasy pole politicians of all hues need sharp elbows, a ruthless streak and powerful friends, so a free press is essential to drag their skeletons out of the cupboard for us all to examine and criticise before we decide whether or not to vote for them.
Only in places like N.Korea, China, Russia and many other African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries are the political elite free from criticism because to do so invites arrest and imprisonment - possibly torture and murder.
To quote Churchill, “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time…”
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 18:07
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
A ridiculous analogy.
The Maquis were resisting an amoral totalitarian occupying force who did not offer any form of democratic expression to the subjugated population - indeed they would happily murder individuals, groups or whole villages who they suspected of resisting.
We are extremely fortunate that our ancestors campaigned and fought for the right to choose a Government whom the majority believe best matches their own hopes, beliefs and aspirations. Regardless of spin and media manipulation, if they fail they will face retribution at the ballot box.
We may all wish to be governed by paragons of virtue, but they do not exist. Politics is a dirty game and always has been. To climb the greasy pole politicians of all hues need sharp elbows, a ruthless streak and powerful friends, so a free press is essential to drag their skeletons out of the cupboard for us all to examine and criticise before we decide whether or not to vote for them.
Only in places like N.Korea, China, Russia and many other African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries are the political elite free from criticism because to do so invites arrest and imprisonment - possibly torture and murder.
To quote Churchill, “No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time…”
That is a dangerous argument to make imho.
Ireland was forcibly held by England for several centuries, more gently in recent years admittedly, but coercion was always there.
So perhaps Corbyn is more consistent in his position than he is given credit for.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 18:54
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
That is a dangerous argument to make imho.
Ireland was forcibly held by England for several centuries, more gently in recent years admittedly, but coercion was always there.
So perhaps Corbyn is more consistent in his position than he is given credit for.
That's an ingenuous comparison. The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.
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Old 26th Nov 2019, 19:39
  #212 (permalink)  
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Having lost the thread title plot utterly and gone past anything to do with Mil Aviation it’s time to close this thread
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