Disappointing F35 display at RIAT
Nivsy
This is a genuine question to which I do not know the answer.
Are you sure the US trip for the Reds is paid for out of tax payers money?
Critics of the Reds often cite them as a waste of money without realising they cost the nation very little in real terms.
If people want a visible sign of where their money is spent, they are it. Most of the general public would rather see the Reds than an F35 any day of the week.
Still, I suspect you know all of this and your mind is made up so I am probably wasting my time.
I’m on a long road trip though and I have to fill my time somehow.
BV
Are you sure the US trip for the Reds is paid for out of tax payers money?
Critics of the Reds often cite them as a waste of money without realising they cost the nation very little in real terms.
If people want a visible sign of where their money is spent, they are it. Most of the general public would rather see the Reds than an F35 any day of the week.
Still, I suspect you know all of this and your mind is made up so I am probably wasting my time.
I’m on a long road trip though and I have to fill my time somehow.
BV
It was a short and sweet display, but it was welcome that 617/208 showed their faces, as I'm sure they've got better things to do than airshows with their limited number of airframes.
The Spanish Harriers were great, so we had a welcome dose of STOVL.
The Spanish Harriers were great, so we had a welcome dose of STOVL.
I really don't believe it is a major job to design, test fly a couple of times and make two trips to air display..................
If it is there's going to be trouble if they ever have to fight the Red menace - do they expect Mr Putin to send them a warning and detailed timetable 12 months in advance
Lets face it - they couldn't be bothered ....... and so the military lose another chance to "meet" the public
If it is there's going to be trouble if they ever have to fight the Red menace - do they expect Mr Putin to send them a warning and detailed timetable 12 months in advance
Lets face it - they couldn't be bothered ....... and so the military lose another chance to "meet" the public
Asturias
If a FJ pilot with 20 years experience (me) is telling you that it is not as simple as you think it is then maybe you could just believe me?
Or just keep pretending you know better than me. Your choice.
BV
Or just keep pretending you know better than me. Your choice.
BV
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Around and about
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It was mentioned on Saturday that the F-35 arrived low on fuel, hence it’s display was much shorter and simpler than what we saw on the Friday. The display on the Friday was a “prop display” with hovering etc. rather than just some flybys. Unfortunately, some didn’t know it arrived low on fuel and did a much shorter display, but quickly jumped to the wrong defence.
I wish I hadn't said anything now!! I'm getting a bit fed up of PPRuNe now. Every discussion I read seems to end up in a bunfight, not reasoned discussion. I was very happy with the replies I got and should have thought of that myself. End of thread I thought. Oh dear me.
Surely the pilots know how to land and take off. A vertical landing followed by a standard take off would not test the metal too much would it?
Too much time on my hands.
Since I have nothing better to do right now I will explain a little further.
What pilots can do and what they can be authorised to do as part of a display are two very different things. Especially since the Shoreham crash.
I feel sure that any RAF or RN F35 pilot could make a decent stab at an interesting display.
Take the Typhoon display as an example. The display pilot will be chosen from several suitably qualified applicants. In fact, due to operational commitments this year’s display pilot is the same as last year to reduce the training burden. He or she will then commence a work up in the first half of the year.
The work up will typicaly be discussed and planned with the input of experienced individuals (the previous seasons display pilot will often serve as the display supervisor for the following season or at least for the work up).
Once the display has been designed it will be practiced at ever decreasing heights until the pilot is able to perform safely and consistently to the display parameters.
During the season the pilot will usually travel with a spare jet and a supervisor (the supervisor will often fly the spare).
The whole process from selection of the pilot to public display approval may take 2-3 months (someone feel free to interject if my timelines are out). Typically there will be about 20-30 flights or maybe more. Especially for a new type such as the F35.
The aim is to have a display that can be performed safely to the enjoyment of the assembled masses.
The senior officer who approved the display has to be satisfied it is safe and interesting enough to justify the expense. For it is he or she that will be in the dock if the jet crashes into a crowd and must prove that all necessary steps were taken to ensure the whole process was adequately thought through.
Display pilots have been removed from their role before when they haven’t performed adequately.
You see, it’s not quite as simple as grabbing a jet and going up diddly up for the crowds. Now more so than ever.
For the F35 there is the added complication of the fact that there are no previous display pilots to speak to. Designing the display from first principles will probably involve asking previous display pilots from other types to get involved.
I hope that helps to explain my earlier posts which may have been a little terse.
BV
What pilots can do and what they can be authorised to do as part of a display are two very different things. Especially since the Shoreham crash.
I feel sure that any RAF or RN F35 pilot could make a decent stab at an interesting display.
Take the Typhoon display as an example. The display pilot will be chosen from several suitably qualified applicants. In fact, due to operational commitments this year’s display pilot is the same as last year to reduce the training burden. He or she will then commence a work up in the first half of the year.
The work up will typicaly be discussed and planned with the input of experienced individuals (the previous seasons display pilot will often serve as the display supervisor for the following season or at least for the work up).
Once the display has been designed it will be practiced at ever decreasing heights until the pilot is able to perform safely and consistently to the display parameters.
During the season the pilot will usually travel with a spare jet and a supervisor (the supervisor will often fly the spare).
The whole process from selection of the pilot to public display approval may take 2-3 months (someone feel free to interject if my timelines are out). Typically there will be about 20-30 flights or maybe more. Especially for a new type such as the F35.
The aim is to have a display that can be performed safely to the enjoyment of the assembled masses.
The senior officer who approved the display has to be satisfied it is safe and interesting enough to justify the expense. For it is he or she that will be in the dock if the jet crashes into a crowd and must prove that all necessary steps were taken to ensure the whole process was adequately thought through.
Display pilots have been removed from their role before when they haven’t performed adequately.
You see, it’s not quite as simple as grabbing a jet and going up diddly up for the crowds. Now more so than ever.
For the F35 there is the added complication of the fact that there are no previous display pilots to speak to. Designing the display from first principles will probably involve asking previous display pilots from other types to get involved.
I hope that helps to explain my earlier posts which may have been a little terse.
BV
Ok, reasoned explanation if I may.
When I was first in the RAF in the 70s, what Turin suggests was widely accepted. Unfortunately a lot of pilots got carried away in public and came to grief. After several display related fatalities very rigorous rules about flying in public were introduced. These require any pilot flying in public to be carefully selected, have his appointment confirmed by higher HQ, and have his or her display routine approved. This all happens before Christmas of the year before the display season. Then, in addition to their normal duties, they fly a display practice each day the weather permits. Each practice has to be supervised by a senior officer, probably the Squadron Commander. Over the winter the display altitude is slowly worked down to low level and before it can be performed in public it must receive authorisation from a very senior officer. During the season as well as the pilot an aircraft and a spare have to be provided, and if landing at the venue a team of engineers and spares dispatched by road. This is all in addition to the normal load on the squadron and it’s people, and with the current operational tempo this is often simply not possible.
If if you want more displays write to your MP and demand more money, airframes, people, spares and fewer operational commitments.
When I was first in the RAF in the 70s, what Turin suggests was widely accepted. Unfortunately a lot of pilots got carried away in public and came to grief. After several display related fatalities very rigorous rules about flying in public were introduced. These require any pilot flying in public to be carefully selected, have his appointment confirmed by higher HQ, and have his or her display routine approved. This all happens before Christmas of the year before the display season. Then, in addition to their normal duties, they fly a display practice each day the weather permits. Each practice has to be supervised by a senior officer, probably the Squadron Commander. Over the winter the display altitude is slowly worked down to low level and before it can be performed in public it must receive authorisation from a very senior officer. During the season as well as the pilot an aircraft and a spare have to be provided, and if landing at the venue a team of engineers and spares dispatched by road. This is all in addition to the normal load on the squadron and it’s people, and with the current operational tempo this is often simply not possible.
If if you want more displays write to your MP and demand more money, airframes, people, spares and fewer operational commitments.
There was a Hawk display pilot removed from his display duties in the none too distant past for 'overstressing the airframe' I believe. IIRC he was pulling more G than authorised (I'm sure someone can fill in the blanks). This made it into a lot of the daily papers too.
Timelord and Roland
My post was a bit of an essay. Timelord your timelines may be more accurate than mine and show that they may be even more elongated than I suggest. I’m basing it on what I saw at Valley.
There are others far more knowledgeable than myself about display flying but I think between us we have illustrated that it is not as simple as some folk think.
BV
There are others far more knowledgeable than myself about display flying but I think between us we have illustrated that it is not as simple as some folk think.
BV
Thank you Bob, Timelord & Turin for explaining the current Process
I have to say it reminds me a bit of Parkinson's Law - "work expands to fill the time available"
his illustration was that a busy person took all of 5 minutes to write a postcard, stamp it and post it whereas a retired lady of a certain age could spend the whole day on the same job
I wonder if, should a sudden Royal Event or something The Prime Minister wanted to impress a foreign dignitary 6-12 months prep would be required?
Somehow I doubt it.....................
I have to say it reminds me a bit of Parkinson's Law - "work expands to fill the time available"
his illustration was that a busy person took all of 5 minutes to write a postcard, stamp it and post it whereas a retired lady of a certain age could spend the whole day on the same job
I wonder if, should a sudden Royal Event or something The Prime Minister wanted to impress a foreign dignitary 6-12 months prep would be required?
Somehow I doubt it.....................
Asturias
There is a world of difference between a display and a flypast. Both require high level approval and supervision but a flypast does not take anywhere near as much practice.
Planning for a large flypast may take several weeks but it will usually only entail one or two airborne practices.
I can assure you this is not a case of ‘Parkinson’s Law’. Getting a display right takes practice. I have plenty of Hawk experience but I wouldn’t fly a low level display without a lot of practice. It’s a confidence thing as well as a safety thing.
I have flown many loops in a Hawk. Never below 5000’ feet though. To have the confidence to pull through when the ground looms large in the roof would take some convincing.
BV
Planning for a large flypast may take several weeks but it will usually only entail one or two airborne practices.
I can assure you this is not a case of ‘Parkinson’s Law’. Getting a display right takes practice. I have plenty of Hawk experience but I wouldn’t fly a low level display without a lot of practice. It’s a confidence thing as well as a safety thing.
I have flown many loops in a Hawk. Never below 5000’ feet though. To have the confidence to pull through when the ground looms large in the roof would take some convincing.
BV
Last edited by Bob Viking; 22nd Jul 2019 at 15:55.
It was mentioned on Saturday that the F-35 arrived low on fuel, hence it’s display was much shorter and simpler than what we saw on the Friday. The display on the Friday was a “prop display” with hovering etc. rather than just some flybys. Unfortunately, some didn’t know it arrived low on fuel and did a much shorter display, but quickly jumped to the wrong defence.
No idea what went on at RIAT but a common reason for display aircraft to be short of fuel is that they have been held awaiting their slot. Maybe the display was running late and the F35 had to hold for longer than they planned?