Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Red Arrows - worth the effort now?

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Red Arrows - worth the effort now?

Old 2nd Dec 2019, 20:54
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,874
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Afghanistan and Iraq campaigns were funded from Government Reserve plus a plethora of Urgent Operational Requirements that also did not come out of the MoD budget
Just not true pr00ne. Not true at all.

10/10 for a remarkably assertive stance from a position of no authority, insight or understanding - but 1/10 for accuracy.






Just This Once... is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2019, 22:05
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
For the miserable lot who think the Reds are a waste of time, I hope this picture changes your mind.

If they can inspire the next generation, they've served their purpose. This young lad had his childhood made.

Feet together, Red 9...

This argument, whilst perhaps true, does not justify keeping the Reds. There are so few airshows and displays that compared to 20 yrs ago a LOT less kids see the Reds perform.

In addition, if you were to survey most serving members of the RAF I would imagine that 99.5% did not join the RAF because of the Reds. I for one joined because a Chinook landed outside my Air Cadet Sqn (before I even understood that the air cadets existed). The Reds although great to watch holds no allure for this guy, even as a kid.

I would suggest that most young boys seeing a FJ with 'bombs' and 'guns' or a Helicopter fast roping or offloading 30 full tolled up soldiers has as much, if not more draw for your average little boy. That is certainly the vibe I get from all little boys I have met.

Just my opinion and not meant to cause nasty arguments or name calling.

Last edited by heights good; 2nd Dec 2019 at 22:19.
heights good is offline  
Old 2nd Dec 2019, 22:29
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Baston
Posts: 1,655
Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Just not true pr00ne. Not true at all.

10/10 for a remarkably assertive stance from a position of no authority, insight or understanding - but 1/10 for accuracy.
Which bit attracted the 1?
langleybaston is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 08:25
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Gatport Airwick
Posts: 133
Well, at the museum that I volunteer at, one of our best sellers is the Corgi "Syncho Pair". If that can be considered a reasonable measure of the "Reds effect" on impressionable youngsters, then they are having the desired effect.
pmills575 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 10:20
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London/Oxford/New York
Posts: 2,191
Just this once, and langleybaston,

Go read Hansard, read defence white papers, read treasury expense reports, where it is all recorded as fact.
pr00ne is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 11:11
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: London
Posts: 318
I just watched a C5 fly-on-the-wall documentary about the Household Cavalry.
Huge amount of money spent on 325 personnel, looking after 300 odd horses, riding schools, a warhouse full of ceremonial kit, full-time-vets, four full-time farriers etc...
Oh, and a band.

All for ceremonial duty, mainly around central London.

Bin them too...??
The British Army has more horses than tanks. Go figure...
Mil-26Man is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 12:02
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
But the horses bring in hundreds of millions of dollars ....................

You should be able to do the ceremonial/PR stuff as well as the fighting. After all most of the time most of the Army isn't actually in a foxhole somewhere
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 14:30
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by pmills575 View Post
Well, at the museum that I volunteer at, one of our best sellers is the Corgi "Syncho Pair". If that can be considered a reasonable measure of the "Reds effect" on impressionable youngsters, then they are having the desired effect.
As a kid I absolutely loved books on nature and animals and had an encyclopedic knowledge of the subject. I was taken to the zoo several times a year, was always drawing animals and trying to adopt cats, dogs, bees, birds, rabbits.... Anything.

I joined the military and now have zero interest in animals 😀

correlation doesn't equal causation
heights good is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 18:33
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 1,874
Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Just this once, and langleybaston,

Go read Hansard, read defence white papers, read treasury expense reports, where it is all recorded as fact.
As one who sat with the Treasury and bid for funding I have a better idea than most over how much of the financial burden of Herrick and Telic fell directly on the FLCs. Enjoy your reading and spouting of Hansard and alike, but it will not improve your 1/10 score. Even the single point I gave you was charitable as once we entered the land of 'use it or lose it' Treasury-logic the MoD was well-and-truly stuffed.

Just This Once... is offline  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:11
  #70 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,613
Originally Posted by langleybaston View Post
Which bit attracted the 1?
Like Amazon nil point is not permitted. 😀
Pontius Navigator is online now  
Old 3rd Dec 2019, 19:51
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Down South
Posts: 188
Originally Posted by heights good View Post
This argument, whilst perhaps true, does not justify keeping the Reds. There are so few airshows and displays that compared to 20 yrs ago a LOT less kids see the Reds perform.

In addition, if you were to survey most serving members of the RAF I would imagine that 99.5% did not join the RAF because of the Reds. I for one joined because a Chinook landed outside my Air Cadet Sqn (before I even understood that the air cadets existed). The Reds although great to watch holds no allure for this guy, even as a kid.

I would suggest that most young boys seeing a FJ with 'bombs' and 'guns' or a Helicopter fast roping or offloading 30 full tolled up soldiers has as much, if not more draw for your average little boy. That is certainly the vibe I get from all little boys I have met.

Just my opinion and not meant to cause nasty arguments or name calling.
Yeah, good argument and I can relate. The Tornado always impressed me more as a kid than the Red Arrows ever did.

I think the Reds are still valuable for engagement and recruitment. Some people don't consider joining without prior engagement to inspire the interest.
BVRAAM is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2019, 00:08
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by BVRAAM View Post
Yeah, good argument and I can relate. The Tornado always impressed me more as a kid than the Red Arrows ever did.

I think the Reds are still valuable for engagement and recruitment. Some people don't consider joining without prior engagement to inspire the interest.
Indeed . 100 million quid can be found to stick some cones up on the motorway for no-deal planning ( and then take them down again) , but funding for the Reds is some kind of issue .
Back in the day , what inspired us were the 'Toom , the Lightning and yes , the Reds (Gnats in those days ) . Pre PC/ Health and Safety era . Wouldn't be allowed now ; all that nasty afterburner stuff is bad for the environment .....
Phantom Driver is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2019, 02:01
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 367
Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
But the horses bring in hundreds of millions of dollars ....................

You should be able to do the ceremonial/PR stuff as well as the fighting. After all most of the time most of the Army isn't actually in a foxhole somewhere
I would argue that the horses dont bring in much at all. I would be very surprised if there were more than a few dozen people who solely visit London to see the horses and soldiers. The overwhelming majority visit the UK or even London to see a plethora of attractions, the horses being 1 of literally hundreds of such attractions.
heights good is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2019, 09:16
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
If you look a tthe PR for the UK when you are overseas you'd think there was little else other than the Brigade of Guards and the Household Regiment in the whole country - it's iconic stuff . Agreed not everyone comes to see them and once they have seen them they may not do it every time but it's key to the "brand"
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2019, 19:15
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: the far south
Posts: 354
For recruitment I think you would do much better (and far cheaper) by funding a Chinook (and crew) to constantly make school visits.
Imagine all the school kids lined up on the playing fields , Cab arrives and does a little demo - make it fun and show a few tac skills and a couple of bods abseiling out the back.
then land and out the back jumps the career guys signing everyone up!
Try and find a local lad in the aircrew so the kids can relate and imagine that could be me - he gives a bit of a speech to say so.
Perhaps the top science class can have a quick 5 minutes trip?
It would cost a fraction of the Reds and I'm sure would be more engaging for most.

Thoughts?

Google tells me there are 4000 secondary schools in the UK - so if there were 5 visits a day- that would be 1000 a year with 200 days on the job - kids would most likely see the aircraft during their education

Last edited by typerated; 7th Dec 2019 at 19:39.
typerated is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2019, 08:50
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 351
Can you image the HSE reaction!!!!
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2019, 09:27
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West London
Posts: 1,010
Originally Posted by typerated View Post
Google tells me there are 4000 secondary schools in the UK - so if there were 5 visits a day- that would be 1000 a year with 200 days on the job - kids would most likely see the aircraft during their education
How many of those still have their own playing fields given the huge amount sold off to raise funds since the early 1980's......?

I bet you'll not find many inner city/urban areas that have retained their playing fields.
GeeRam is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2019, 11:05
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
Posts: 25,503
Chivenor Hunters and Yeovilton Sea Vixens always got my attention (and sometimes a rebuke) during lessons at school. But no-one looked twice at any helicopter, apart from an ancient Dragonfly which once made a surprise appearance over the town.

Yes, of course the Reds are still worth the effort. As are the Army's horses and HMS Victory!

But how could anyone advise a keen youngster that if they waited 7 years to get to a frontline jet and another 3 on their first tour, they might be lucky enough to be accepted for RAFAT?
BEagle is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.