Recruit and Train or Pay Bonuses and Retain?
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My nephew is currently training at Cosford, and they've been told if they want to work on the fleet at Brize after training, they will have to sign up for an extra 5 years. Apparently there's loads of folk leaving for the civil sector from there.
Dan, that is probably for the A330 Voyager fleet, although I don’t know if our engineers get Part-M tickets or not?
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FRIs always make me chuckle such as the latest offerings for WSOs to sign onto PA Spine. £20k (taxable) for 5yrs return of service!!!
£2k a year!!! Who on earth is going to sign that unless they were staying anyway? FRI should be IYSAFI - If You Are Staying Anyway Financial Incentive
£2k a year!!! Who on earth is going to sign that unless they were staying anyway? FRI should be IYSAFI - If You Are Staying Anyway Financial Incentive
Like what was said above, the only people I know who have actually taken it are people that are staying in anyway. I also agree that it isn't about the money. Flying in the RAF could be by far the best job in the world, but it is completely ruined by a lot of what has already been said. These factors along with a task that is poorly prioritised, horrendous screw-drivering from above and a flight safety system that is becoming less open (due to the consequences of owning up to mistakes) leads to massive discontent. I also didn't turn up to the frontline as a pilot and expect to spend 10+ hours a week staring at Excel sorting the programme out as well as all the other rubbish we have to deal with!!
heights good
You need to check your maths chum. A £20k FRI with a 5yr ROS is £4k a year. Even after tax at 40% it is £2.4k a year or £200 a month extra in your pocket. But then you shouldn’t think of it that way, more like a £12k lump sum in your pocket to do something with. If you wanted to generate that sort of money then a 5 year loan would cost you probably £230-£250 a month with the interest. This is costing you nothing but for a bit more loyalty!
banterbus
If I read this correctly “I also didn't turn up to the frontline as a pilot and expect to spend 10+ hours a week staring at Excel sorting the programme out as well as all the other rubbish we have to deal with!!”, you don’t believe that you should be the Sqn Programmer. As one myself back between 1999 and 2003, let me tell you that being a Programmer is worth it’s weight in gold - both personally and for ensuring some chinless non-Aircrew chiseller isn’t doing your programming for you. Now we can get someone in to programme and you can go flying more and more, but when you need that “mate’s rate” favour or making sure that the right team is put on a sortie together, then you have just lost that flexibility.
Also, the same goes for the £70k lump sum at OCU+7. It’s a friggin’ big wadge of cash, even after tax you should have £41k (ish) after tax and NI. Again, think of it as a lump sum and not the 6 yr ROS. It costs you nothing, it is conveniently house deposit sized and your wages (basic and RRP(F)) will still go up during that time. It then gets you to an Early Departure Payment point (within 2 years for most) and you should have by then either promoted, been offered PAS or chosen to leave. Anyone who chooses to leave before they get their EDP is a freakin’ idjit - get that in the bag and then leave with a nice monthly payment from then on to help with the mortgage that you started with your £70k Retention Payment roughly 8 years earlier.
You need to check your maths chum. A £20k FRI with a 5yr ROS is £4k a year. Even after tax at 40% it is £2.4k a year or £200 a month extra in your pocket. But then you shouldn’t think of it that way, more like a £12k lump sum in your pocket to do something with. If you wanted to generate that sort of money then a 5 year loan would cost you probably £230-£250 a month with the interest. This is costing you nothing but for a bit more loyalty!
banterbus
If I read this correctly “I also didn't turn up to the frontline as a pilot and expect to spend 10+ hours a week staring at Excel sorting the programme out as well as all the other rubbish we have to deal with!!”, you don’t believe that you should be the Sqn Programmer. As one myself back between 1999 and 2003, let me tell you that being a Programmer is worth it’s weight in gold - both personally and for ensuring some chinless non-Aircrew chiseller isn’t doing your programming for you. Now we can get someone in to programme and you can go flying more and more, but when you need that “mate’s rate” favour or making sure that the right team is put on a sortie together, then you have just lost that flexibility.
Also, the same goes for the £70k lump sum at OCU+7. It’s a friggin’ big wadge of cash, even after tax you should have £41k (ish) after tax and NI. Again, think of it as a lump sum and not the 6 yr ROS. It costs you nothing, it is conveniently house deposit sized and your wages (basic and RRP(F)) will still go up during that time. It then gets you to an Early Departure Payment point (within 2 years for most) and you should have by then either promoted, been offered PAS or chosen to leave. Anyone who chooses to leave before they get their EDP is a freakin’ idjit - get that in the bag and then leave with a nice monthly payment from then on to help with the mortgage that you started with your £70k Retention Payment roughly 8 years earlier.
Also, the same goes for the £70k lump sum at OCU+7. It’s a friggin’ big wadge of cash, even after tax you should have £41k (ish) after tax and NI. Again, think of it as a lump sum and not the 6 yr ROS. It costs you nothing, it is conveniently house deposit sized and your wages (basic and RRP(F)) will still go up during that time.
70k lump sum
I would think of it more as an enforced, 0% interest savings scheme.
LJ, you do talk a lot of sense and it is the chafe that gets people down in the long run. But money still is (or can be) the answer.
The pay package, particularly on PAS and when you add schooling in is good. However, the lump sum to leave at around about the age 40 point is very useful. It is then very possible to continue elsewhere with a similar, or better, pay package and potentially less chafe.
If MOD want a relatively low cost option I still think that allowing people to access their EDP earlier (provided it can be given tax free) when it can be of real use could be a good solution.
I am no expert though.
BV
LJ, you do talk a lot of sense and it is the chafe that gets people down in the long run. But money still is (or can be) the answer.
The pay package, particularly on PAS and when you add schooling in is good. However, the lump sum to leave at around about the age 40 point is very useful. It is then very possible to continue elsewhere with a similar, or better, pay package and potentially less chafe.
If MOD want a relatively low cost option I still think that allowing people to access their EDP earlier (provided it can be given tax free) when it can be of real use could be a good solution.
I am no expert though.
BV
Bob Viking wrote:
Well, that sounds exactly like the 'Selective Bonus on Demand' scheme I proposed 30 years ago whilst serving at RAF Abingdon - the idea being that at (what was then) 38/16 you could take whatever portion of the 'bonus' which was to be offered rather than all of it. The rest would remain available, increasing with time served.
My Wg Cdr and Gp Capt both supported it and Binnsworth thanked me.... But then the wall came down and for a while recruiting and retention wasn't an issue until we start losing folks to the airlines again a year or so later.
If MOD want a relatively low cost option I still think that allowing people to access their EDP earlier (provided it can be given tax free) when it can be of real use could be a good solution.
My Wg Cdr and Gp Capt both supported it and Binnsworth thanked me.... But then the wall came down and for a while recruiting and retention wasn't an issue until we start losing folks to the airlines again a year or so later.
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The front line have the spreadsheets, it’s openly and widely known that since the AFPS15 deal, it’s quite frankly pointless sticking much past ROS if you can get a longhaul job in the industry. 750k differential last time I looked, and that was assuming service to 38 with a partial 75 pension. The figures would be even more distorted with the change to 15.
Which is is exactly what lots of second tourists are doing right now. Headed off to fly 777, 787 and soon A350, typically picking up a massive pay rise (60+ basic), 23k of downroute Non audited and tax discounted allowances helps too, certainly for eating decent food downroute. The view has changed significantly now from ‘one year to pension’ to now ‘every year I delay is a years less airline captain pay at the end’.
The pay rises the mob have offered in the past 10 years are derisory. May want to look across the fence at 12%+ 3 year pay deals in Industry. So whilst the current pay is poor to okayish for the skill set required, who wants to stick around to have their purchasing power further undermined with further below inflation pay rises and a management chain that’s too interested in the next rung than fighting the fight with treasury for decent pay?
MoD management need to wake up. The NHS and airlines pay frontline professionals far more than their management chain due to the marketability of their skill sets. Imho an FRI would need to be upwards of 350-400k NET to justify staying. Why would you stick around for a 20k FRI when you can earn double that by leaving and drawing your pension?
Oh the worst hotel I’ve stayed in was significantly better in terms of quality and location than ever experienced in the mob. All are in a decent location and all fully support the job, in terms of quality and downroute lifestyle (viewed as part of the package) Without having to watch my line management tear their hair out defending the line from some nutter 3* throwing his teddies out of the cot about hotac cost (the clown missed that on base serco cost more) and why we aren’t all down on base next to one of the biggest modern global cities living in substandard portakabins, jet noise and no 24 hour feeder. Then watch as the unit productivity collapses due to fatigue. Truly inspirational.
Which is is exactly what lots of second tourists are doing right now. Headed off to fly 777, 787 and soon A350, typically picking up a massive pay rise (60+ basic), 23k of downroute Non audited and tax discounted allowances helps too, certainly for eating decent food downroute. The view has changed significantly now from ‘one year to pension’ to now ‘every year I delay is a years less airline captain pay at the end’.
The pay rises the mob have offered in the past 10 years are derisory. May want to look across the fence at 12%+ 3 year pay deals in Industry. So whilst the current pay is poor to okayish for the skill set required, who wants to stick around to have their purchasing power further undermined with further below inflation pay rises and a management chain that’s too interested in the next rung than fighting the fight with treasury for decent pay?
MoD management need to wake up. The NHS and airlines pay frontline professionals far more than their management chain due to the marketability of their skill sets. Imho an FRI would need to be upwards of 350-400k NET to justify staying. Why would you stick around for a 20k FRI when you can earn double that by leaving and drawing your pension?
Oh the worst hotel I’ve stayed in was significantly better in terms of quality and location than ever experienced in the mob. All are in a decent location and all fully support the job, in terms of quality and downroute lifestyle (viewed as part of the package) Without having to watch my line management tear their hair out defending the line from some nutter 3* throwing his teddies out of the cot about hotac cost (the clown missed that on base serco cost more) and why we aren’t all down on base next to one of the biggest modern global cities living in substandard portakabins, jet noise and no 24 hour feeder. Then watch as the unit productivity collapses due to fatigue. Truly inspirational.
Last edited by VinRouge; 7th Jul 2019 at 11:03.
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Must be a freakin’ idjit
heights good
You need to check your maths chum. A £20k FRI with a 5yr ROS is £4k a year. Even after tax at 40% it is £2.4k a year or £200 a month extra in your pocket. But then you shouldn’t think of it that way, more like a £12k lump sum in your pocket to do something with. If you wanted to generate that sort of money then a 5 year loan would cost you probably £230-£250 a month with the interest. This is costing you nothing but for a bit more loyalty!
banterbus
If I read this correctly “I also didn't turn up to the frontline as a pilot and expect to spend 10+ hours a week staring at Excel sorting the programme out as well as all the other rubbish we have to deal with!!”, you don’t believe that you should be the Sqn Programmer. As one myself back between 1999 and 2003, let me tell you that being a Programmer is worth it’s weight in gold - both personally and for ensuring some chinless non-Aircrew chiseller isn’t doing your programming for you. Now we can get someone in to programme and you can go flying more and more, but when you need that “mate’s rate” favour or making sure that the right team is put on a sortie together, then you have just lost that flexibility.
Also, the same goes for the £70k lump sum at OCU+7. It’s a friggin’ big wadge of cash, even after tax you should have £41k (ish) after tax and NI. Again, think of it as a lump sum and not the 6 yr ROS. It costs you nothing, it is conveniently house deposit sized and your wages (basic and RRP(F)) will still go up during that time. It then gets you to an Early Departure Payment point (within 2 years for most) and you should have by then either promoted, been offered PAS or chosen to leave. Anyone who chooses to leave before they get their EDP is a freakin’ idjit - get that in the bag and then leave with a nice monthly payment from then on to help with the mortgage that you started with your £70k Retention Payment roughly 8 years earlier.
You need to check your maths chum. A £20k FRI with a 5yr ROS is £4k a year. Even after tax at 40% it is £2.4k a year or £200 a month extra in your pocket. But then you shouldn’t think of it that way, more like a £12k lump sum in your pocket to do something with. If you wanted to generate that sort of money then a 5 year loan would cost you probably £230-£250 a month with the interest. This is costing you nothing but for a bit more loyalty!
banterbus
If I read this correctly “I also didn't turn up to the frontline as a pilot and expect to spend 10+ hours a week staring at Excel sorting the programme out as well as all the other rubbish we have to deal with!!”, you don’t believe that you should be the Sqn Programmer. As one myself back between 1999 and 2003, let me tell you that being a Programmer is worth it’s weight in gold - both personally and for ensuring some chinless non-Aircrew chiseller isn’t doing your programming for you. Now we can get someone in to programme and you can go flying more and more, but when you need that “mate’s rate” favour or making sure that the right team is put on a sortie together, then you have just lost that flexibility.
Also, the same goes for the £70k lump sum at OCU+7. It’s a friggin’ big wadge of cash, even after tax you should have £41k (ish) after tax and NI. Again, think of it as a lump sum and not the 6 yr ROS. It costs you nothing, it is conveniently house deposit sized and your wages (basic and RRP(F)) will still go up during that time. It then gets you to an Early Departure Payment point (within 2 years for most) and you should have by then either promoted, been offered PAS or chosen to leave. Anyone who chooses to leave before they get their EDP is a freakin’ idjit - get that in the bag and then leave with a nice monthly payment from then on to help with the mortgage that you started with your £70k Retention Payment roughly 8 years earlier.
High_Expect
Obviously we know each other and know each other’s circumstances. No need to go into details on either front.
You make good points and in your situation it may well have worked out the best for you in the long run.
However, I feel you are being slightly disingenuous.
You are effectively counting your salary twice. I know how much it is, but your maths makes out that you save all of it into a pension. I know that, if invested wisely, it makes for a very solid financial foundation but you can’t honestly claim you have already saved hundreds of thousands of pounds purely for pension purposes.
If you do ‘pension pot maths’ as I have many times then it can paint a very different picture.
Now, I am on AFPS 75/15 and reached my IPP at age 38 which makes our circumstances slightly different. I intend to have my cake and eat it with regards to pension.
I think your situation and how it affects people who were caught up in the enforced switch to AFPS 15 in toto does probably make an earlier departure more financially sound. However, a longer career with a PAS pension (and don’t forget good schooling) is not all doom and gloom.
Also, don’t forget. Certain locations don’t suit everyone.
BV
You make good points and in your situation it may well have worked out the best for you in the long run.
However, I feel you are being slightly disingenuous.
You are effectively counting your salary twice. I know how much it is, but your maths makes out that you save all of it into a pension. I know that, if invested wisely, it makes for a very solid financial foundation but you can’t honestly claim you have already saved hundreds of thousands of pounds purely for pension purposes.
If you do ‘pension pot maths’ as I have many times then it can paint a very different picture.
Now, I am on AFPS 75/15 and reached my IPP at age 38 which makes our circumstances slightly different. I intend to have my cake and eat it with regards to pension.
I think your situation and how it affects people who were caught up in the enforced switch to AFPS 15 in toto does probably make an earlier departure more financially sound. However, a longer career with a PAS pension (and don’t forget good schooling) is not all doom and gloom.
Also, don’t forget. Certain locations don’t suit everyone.
BV
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Obviously we know each other and know each other’s circumstances. No need to go into details on either front.
You make good points and in your situation it may well have worked out the best for you in the long run.
However, I feel you are being slightly disingenuous.
You are effectively counting your salary twice. I know how much it is, but your maths makes out that you save all of it into a pension. I know that, if invested wisely, it makes for a very solid financial foundation but you can’t honestly claim you have already saved hundreds of thousands of pounds purely for pension purposes.
If you do ‘pension pot maths’ as I have many times then it can paint a very different picture.
Now, I am on AFPS 75/15 and reached my IPP at age 38 which makes our circumstances slightly different. I intend to have my cake and eat it with regards to pension.
I think your situation and how it affects people who were caught up in the enforced switch to AFPS 15 in toto does probably make an earlier departure more financially sound. However, a longer career with a PAS pension (and don’t forget good schooling) is not all doom and gloom.
Also, don’t forget. Certain locations don’t suit everyone.
BV
You make good points and in your situation it may well have worked out the best for you in the long run.
However, I feel you are being slightly disingenuous.
You are effectively counting your salary twice. I know how much it is, but your maths makes out that you save all of it into a pension. I know that, if invested wisely, it makes for a very solid financial foundation but you can’t honestly claim you have already saved hundreds of thousands of pounds purely for pension purposes.
If you do ‘pension pot maths’ as I have many times then it can paint a very different picture.
Now, I am on AFPS 75/15 and reached my IPP at age 38 which makes our circumstances slightly different. I intend to have my cake and eat it with regards to pension.
I think your situation and how it affects people who were caught up in the enforced switch to AFPS 15 in toto does probably make an earlier departure more financially sound. However, a longer career with a PAS pension (and don’t forget good schooling) is not all doom and gloom.
Also, don’t forget. Certain locations don’t suit everyone.
BV
Let’s look at the numbers, these figures came from - http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/oper...php?reg=Europe
Britain’s Favourite Airline Package (2018 figures)
Basic Salary: First Officer (FO) salary Short-Haul (SH) Lvl 1 £58,846 to Lvl 24 £111,507 (annual increments). First Officer (FO) salary Long-Haul (LH) Lvl 1 £58,846 to Lvl 24 £131,542. Capt salary Short-Haul (SH) Lvl 1 £78,462 to Lvl 24 £125,271. Capt salary Long-Haul (LH) Lvl 1 £78,462 to Lvl 24 £175,393.
Flight or Sector Pay: £10.34/block hour for both Capts and FOs (average 900hrs per year = £9,306).
Duty Pay: £3.52/hr away (900 hrs = £3,168).
Pension: BARP2 = 15% company contribution plus mandatory 6% employee contribution.
Leave: 6 weeks (Saturday to Saturday) with 3x ‘wrap days’ either before or after each week. Can be a 2 week block. Restriction of 1 week over busy summer period and also set for 12 months ahead each October. Those with 6 years or more seniority get priority in leave plot.
Roster: Varies according to SH/MH/LH and fleet but is issued the month before around 3 days before the start of the month. Normally SH is 6on (inc 1-2 standby) 3off and LH is normally 3x LH trips a month with at least 4 days down-route plus 1-2 standby duties.
Other Things To Consider: Time to captaincy >15 years for A380, B777 and B747. A320 captaincy faster for experienced FOs joining the company and may be as quick as 5-8 years. Death in service 3x salary.
Also, have a read about this regarding time off - https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A
Then consider what you get as a senior Flt Lt or junior Sqn Ldr around an option point. Around £65k a year salary, a rented house for between £200-£350 a month (I have a mate who lives in a 4-bed detached quarter near Marlow and he pays £170 a month - you couldn’t rent a garage for that! He has a house that rents too in order to stay on the property market), free dental/med, free gym, access to a subsidised ‘Club’ (aka Mess), access to school fees if required and the crowing glory is that pension. Recently the Govt Actuary Dept valued AFPS15 as worth 59% of your salary - that you don’t pay for. The Airline pension schemes get no-where near this figure. So you need to pull in the ‘entire package’ when you compare - it’s not just cash in your pocket at the end of the month. It is possible to make the RAF ‘offer’ work as long as you can put up with the ‘death by a 1000 cuts’ - which is why I constantly go on about that.
I agree with BV and others, something needs to be done to stop paying people to leave at 38/40 points, and there is the PAS transfer bonus for Flt Lts at that point but not a lot else.
Britain’s Favourite Airline Package (2018 figures)
Basic Salary: First Officer (FO) salary Short-Haul (SH) Lvl 1 £58,846 to Lvl 24 £111,507 (annual increments). First Officer (FO) salary Long-Haul (LH) Lvl 1 £58,846 to Lvl 24 £131,542. Capt salary Short-Haul (SH) Lvl 1 £78,462 to Lvl 24 £125,271. Capt salary Long-Haul (LH) Lvl 1 £78,462 to Lvl 24 £175,393.
Flight or Sector Pay: £10.34/block hour for both Capts and FOs (average 900hrs per year = £9,306).
Duty Pay: £3.52/hr away (900 hrs = £3,168).
Pension: BARP2 = 15% company contribution plus mandatory 6% employee contribution.
Leave: 6 weeks (Saturday to Saturday) with 3x ‘wrap days’ either before or after each week. Can be a 2 week block. Restriction of 1 week over busy summer period and also set for 12 months ahead each October. Those with 6 years or more seniority get priority in leave plot.
Roster: Varies according to SH/MH/LH and fleet but is issued the month before around 3 days before the start of the month. Normally SH is 6on (inc 1-2 standby) 3off and LH is normally 3x LH trips a month with at least 4 days down-route plus 1-2 standby duties.
Other Things To Consider: Time to captaincy >15 years for A380, B777 and B747. A320 captaincy faster for experienced FOs joining the company and may be as quick as 5-8 years. Death in service 3x salary.
Also, have a read about this regarding time off - https://blog.balpa.org/Blog/October-...alance-Pilot-A
Then consider what you get as a senior Flt Lt or junior Sqn Ldr around an option point. Around £65k a year salary, a rented house for between £200-£350 a month (I have a mate who lives in a 4-bed detached quarter near Marlow and he pays £170 a month - you couldn’t rent a garage for that! He has a house that rents too in order to stay on the property market), free dental/med, free gym, access to a subsidised ‘Club’ (aka Mess), access to school fees if required and the crowing glory is that pension. Recently the Govt Actuary Dept valued AFPS15 as worth 59% of your salary - that you don’t pay for. The Airline pension schemes get no-where near this figure. So you need to pull in the ‘entire package’ when you compare - it’s not just cash in your pocket at the end of the month. It is possible to make the RAF ‘offer’ work as long as you can put up with the ‘death by a 1000 cuts’ - which is why I constantly go on about that.
I agree with BV and others, something needs to be done to stop paying people to leave at 38/40 points, and there is the PAS transfer bonus for Flt Lts at that point but not a lot else.
HE
When you say that all you need to do in order to match a Flt Lt pension is invest 150,000-200,000 then again, you should maybe revisit your maths (yes I do understand the principle of compounding). Maybe our definitions of a Flt Lt pension differ.
Let’s say I live to be 85 (that’s the number I always use when I make a comparison). I am PAS. I work out how much my ‘pot’ is worth based on a variety of exit points.
Leaving at my minimum PAS RoS makes my pot worth a sizeable sum (all numbers are available online).
Leaving at 59 years and 364 days gives me a pretty huge lump sum and reduced annual earnings until SPA. Still a pretty big ‘pot’.
Staying until the bitter end at age 60 gives a smaller lump sum but a pretty decent ‘salary’ for sitting on my arse doing nothing. This is a monstrous pot of money in anyone’s book.
Remember, all of these involve zero input from me.
The big question I ask myself is ‘jam today, or jam tomorrow?’. I still don’t have the answer yet.
Of course, dying before I am 85 does ruin my maths a little!
Anyway, I hope you and the clan are all well.
BV
Let’s say I live to be 85 (that’s the number I always use when I make a comparison). I am PAS. I work out how much my ‘pot’ is worth based on a variety of exit points.
Leaving at my minimum PAS RoS makes my pot worth a sizeable sum (all numbers are available online).
Leaving at 59 years and 364 days gives me a pretty huge lump sum and reduced annual earnings until SPA. Still a pretty big ‘pot’.
Staying until the bitter end at age 60 gives a smaller lump sum but a pretty decent ‘salary’ for sitting on my arse doing nothing. This is a monstrous pot of money in anyone’s book.
Remember, all of these involve zero input from me.
The big question I ask myself is ‘jam today, or jam tomorrow?’. I still don’t have the answer yet.
Of course, dying before I am 85 does ruin my maths a little!
Anyway, I hope you and the clan are all well.
BV
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Sorry, the figures that are being pushed out, together with TACOs are a rather pessimistic view of the experience of others actually doing the job. It appears remarkably similar to the tune sung elsewhere on defence connect and is still keeping head in the sand about the need to demand a pound of flesh from the bean counters instead of pretending that the current outflow is just a flesh wound.
Longhaul, between 10-12 full days off a month, not including takeoff and landing day. Shorthaul I know is different. Then again, I don’t know many accepting short haul from the ME community.
Leave - arranged in 4 windows. 2x2 week annual and 2x flexi leave weeks. It’s actually not seniority based, it’s based upon time served on a fleet. After 6 years, you should have enough points to get exactly what you want. You also get 6 bookable days for
weddings etc, they aren’t leave, they just allow you to fix one of your days off between trips. This time off does not include recovery time between trips which is sometimes spread through the month. It’s easy to swap around though and get a solid block of days untasked which is in addition to annual.
Pay. 59K Starting but with somewhere in the region of 10-12%+ coming soon in the next 3 years with no chance of Hammond /successor nailing purchase power with sub inflation pay rises until 55-60. If I work as an FO for 25 years, that has my final P60 at around 115ish basic, 128 pensionable, in today’s money. I don’t think that ten years of 0% will happen any time soon as it did in the military. Oh add 20k in sheckles for downroute food and entertainment. Without submitting a single receipt.
Yep and that would concern me, especially as how it would look next downturn when the treasury are looking for the next cut to morale via AFPS. You only need to look at HMG’s meddling with the discount rate to smell a rat. The contribution rate is now over 75% for Officer I believe, with a net increase in annual liabilities this year of over 115 million due to fiddling with the discount rate. If HMG gave me 75% of my salary to invest, then i would stay. The simple truth is that figure (52% or 75%) is paying for current beneficiaries and is not being paid to you. It is not your benefit. That money iS AME and as such is paid to service veterans, not your pot.
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...%202018-19.pdf
Company annual performance related bonus
Personal Health cover. Death in service 5 times salary and after a few years 8 times salary.
a pension pot that is yours and is not based upon false promises (AFPS75 anyone!?) You have a pension pot that you can control, you can SIPP and will not be at risk once the nonsense that is brexit hammers UK tax revenues and we are all scrabbling for savings.
fixed location pretty much anywhere you want to live south of Birmingham. Commuting from Manchester is common for
LH pilots only flying on average 5 times a month. One guy makes San Fran work. Not for everyone but possible.
I’m not at risk of being posted to back of beyond in Scotland 8 hours away from my family.
A roster that is published and fixed 3 weeks ahead of flying it and leave that is sacrosanct.
I dont have to sit to sit in front of BOCS or argue with a corporal about why he is part of the problem instead of trying to be part of the operational solution.
1 hour crew in compared to 2 1/2 hours. 30 minute crew out compared to 2 hours when the armoury or Survival equipment forget you are back inbound for the third time that week, instead having to complete a de-kit assault course to meet the totally inflexible rules made up by some flt Sgt.
Overtime and the ability to say “No Thanks”.
Where is economy?
Longhaul, between 10-12 full days off a month, not including takeoff and landing day. Shorthaul I know is different. Then again, I don’t know many accepting short haul from the ME community.
Leave - arranged in 4 windows. 2x2 week annual and 2x flexi leave weeks. It’s actually not seniority based, it’s based upon time served on a fleet. After 6 years, you should have enough points to get exactly what you want. You also get 6 bookable days for
weddings etc, they aren’t leave, they just allow you to fix one of your days off between trips. This time off does not include recovery time between trips which is sometimes spread through the month. It’s easy to swap around though and get a solid block of days untasked which is in addition to annual.
Pay. 59K Starting but with somewhere in the region of 10-12%+ coming soon in the next 3 years with no chance of Hammond /successor nailing purchase power with sub inflation pay rises until 55-60. If I work as an FO for 25 years, that has my final P60 at around 115ish basic, 128 pensionable, in today’s money. I don’t think that ten years of 0% will happen any time soon as it did in the military. Oh add 20k in sheckles for downroute food and entertainment. Without submitting a single receipt.
Recently the Govt Actuary Dept valued AFPS15 as worth 59% of your salary
https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...%202018-19.pdf
Company annual performance related bonus
Personal Health cover. Death in service 5 times salary and after a few years 8 times salary.
a pension pot that is yours and is not based upon false promises (AFPS75 anyone!?) You have a pension pot that you can control, you can SIPP and will not be at risk once the nonsense that is brexit hammers UK tax revenues and we are all scrabbling for savings.
fixed location pretty much anywhere you want to live south of Birmingham. Commuting from Manchester is common for
LH pilots only flying on average 5 times a month. One guy makes San Fran work. Not for everyone but possible.
I’m not at risk of being posted to back of beyond in Scotland 8 hours away from my family.
A roster that is published and fixed 3 weeks ahead of flying it and leave that is sacrosanct.
I dont have to sit to sit in front of BOCS or argue with a corporal about why he is part of the problem instead of trying to be part of the operational solution.
1 hour crew in compared to 2 1/2 hours. 30 minute crew out compared to 2 hours when the armoury or Survival equipment forget you are back inbound for the third time that week, instead having to complete a de-kit assault course to meet the totally inflexible rules made up by some flt Sgt.
Overtime and the ability to say “No Thanks”.
Where is economy?
Last edited by VinRouge; 7th Jul 2019 at 15:14.
VinRouge
It works for some people and not for others. You are right there is a no ‘pension pot’ per se but effectively you have a socking great IOU from UK PLC that is underwritten in Law. You also seem to intimate that AFPS75 benefits have been dabbled with? I am unaware of those, to my knowledge the pensions have always paid what people had earned before changes are made to the scheme (like AFPS05 or 15), can you provide a reference to that claim? I am also acutely aware that many Airline employees have had their pensions changed over the years - so this is not an Armed Forces phenomenon.
The leaving rate is no-where near as high as made out - I have no idea why you think people are “pretending the current outflow rate is just a flesh wound”? Again, can you reference me why you think the current rate is so high? Have a look at this: https://assets.publishing.service.go...7505/11485.pdf
The Voluntary Outflow (VO) rate (page 79) last year was 3.1% and totalled 7.4% - looking at the past 5 years then the average VO is 3.3% (so last year was below average for the past 5 years) and over the same period the total average was 7.4% (which means that last year we sat at the average for the past 5 years). Going back 7 years to 2012 on other figures then Pilot VO was 2.4% and total was 7.5%. So I can’t see why you think the “current outflow rate” is so high?
What I do agree with is that the current Pilot output ‘Gain to Strength’ is lower than the numbers leaving. But that is nothing to do with pay and conditions, that’s just the mess that is MFTS after changing requirements of SDSR10 and SDSR15 - and some contracting incompetence!
I believe that Bob Viking hits the nail on the head really - do you want jam today or jam tomorrow? Unless you invest every bit of your extra cash that you earn with the airlines then you are unlikely to match the Armed Forces’ Pension Schemes. My Mrs had a £400k ‘pension pot’ (with low-risk investment) prior to the financial crash in 2007 and it is now worth less than a quarter of that! My Govt IOUs stayed good during that period and my AFPS75 paid out as advertised a couple of years later as I slid into FTRS for my last few years of service (whilst earning a new AFPS15 at the same time). Civvy pension pots are notoriously bad for paying out what they claim...at least with the AFPS then the country has to go completely down the plughole (unlikely, even with the current shenanigans going on!).
So as ever, like everything in life, it is “buyer beware” when you decide on your future career path, pension provision and investments. I will be retiring in a couple of years time with a good pension, a fulfilling career that has paid me reasonably and with a feeling that my service has done some good. I could have joined the airlines, taken some extra cash, probably shacked up with a money-grabbing trolley dolly (a financial stressor if ever I saw one, especially if you have kids prior to that!), flown to the same old destinations with the great British unwashed day-in-day-out, be constantly sweating my Class 1 medical every year over 50 and what my pension might actually pay out when I retire. That is why I am convinced that, if I had done the airline thing, then I would have done it with an AFPS IPP or EDP in my back pocket rather than leaving after 12 years with a derisory resettlement grant of £10k(ish) and no pension seen until 68 (for now!).
To quote my French friends “Petit a petit, l’oiseau fait son nid” - little by little, the bird makes its nest.
It works for some people and not for others. You are right there is a no ‘pension pot’ per se but effectively you have a socking great IOU from UK PLC that is underwritten in Law. You also seem to intimate that AFPS75 benefits have been dabbled with? I am unaware of those, to my knowledge the pensions have always paid what people had earned before changes are made to the scheme (like AFPS05 or 15), can you provide a reference to that claim? I am also acutely aware that many Airline employees have had their pensions changed over the years - so this is not an Armed Forces phenomenon.
The leaving rate is no-where near as high as made out - I have no idea why you think people are “pretending the current outflow rate is just a flesh wound”? Again, can you reference me why you think the current rate is so high? Have a look at this: https://assets.publishing.service.go...7505/11485.pdf
The Voluntary Outflow (VO) rate (page 79) last year was 3.1% and totalled 7.4% - looking at the past 5 years then the average VO is 3.3% (so last year was below average for the past 5 years) and over the same period the total average was 7.4% (which means that last year we sat at the average for the past 5 years). Going back 7 years to 2012 on other figures then Pilot VO was 2.4% and total was 7.5%. So I can’t see why you think the “current outflow rate” is so high?
What I do agree with is that the current Pilot output ‘Gain to Strength’ is lower than the numbers leaving. But that is nothing to do with pay and conditions, that’s just the mess that is MFTS after changing requirements of SDSR10 and SDSR15 - and some contracting incompetence!
I believe that Bob Viking hits the nail on the head really - do you want jam today or jam tomorrow? Unless you invest every bit of your extra cash that you earn with the airlines then you are unlikely to match the Armed Forces’ Pension Schemes. My Mrs had a £400k ‘pension pot’ (with low-risk investment) prior to the financial crash in 2007 and it is now worth less than a quarter of that! My Govt IOUs stayed good during that period and my AFPS75 paid out as advertised a couple of years later as I slid into FTRS for my last few years of service (whilst earning a new AFPS15 at the same time). Civvy pension pots are notoriously bad for paying out what they claim...at least with the AFPS then the country has to go completely down the plughole (unlikely, even with the current shenanigans going on!).
So as ever, like everything in life, it is “buyer beware” when you decide on your future career path, pension provision and investments. I will be retiring in a couple of years time with a good pension, a fulfilling career that has paid me reasonably and with a feeling that my service has done some good. I could have joined the airlines, taken some extra cash, probably shacked up with a money-grabbing trolley dolly (a financial stressor if ever I saw one, especially if you have kids prior to that!), flown to the same old destinations with the great British unwashed day-in-day-out, be constantly sweating my Class 1 medical every year over 50 and what my pension might actually pay out when I retire. That is why I am convinced that, if I had done the airline thing, then I would have done it with an AFPS IPP or EDP in my back pocket rather than leaving after 12 years with a derisory resettlement grant of £10k(ish) and no pension seen until 68 (for now!).
To quote my French friends “Petit a petit, l’oiseau fait son nid” - little by little, the bird makes its nest.
Bob Viking and High_Expect
Yup, I again agree with Bob. So let’s say you are a Flt Lt that joined in 2007 under AFPS05 and plan to leave in 2027 under AFPS15. On today’s figures you could have a £7k per year EDP and a tax free lump sum of £45k at your 20/40 point. At age 55 the EDP would go up to £8.5k (with Index Linking applied to that amount over the subsequent 15 years that have passed), then at age 65 it would become £10k (again index linked from today’s figures). At age 67 that pension jumps again to £18k (again index linked for inflation from today’s calculated amount). Or you could wipe out that EDP tax free lump sum through reverse commutation to raise all of these figures by about an extra £2-3k per year for life.
A £200,000 ‘pension pot’ giving a guaranteed income according to the Prudential website (one of the more reliable companies) estimates:
Pension pot size at age 60: £200,000
Take 25% tax-free cash as a lump sum: £50,000
Amount used to buy an annuity: £150,000
To provide a guaranteed yearly income for the rest of your life of: £6,800
So you have saved £200,000 over a 20 year period to achieve roughly the same as AFPS has at 20/40 - but the AFPS will pay you substantially more when you actually finish working. To get the same deal then the Govt Actuary Dept believe that you would need to invest £500,000(ish) to get the same sort of pension amounts in retirement as someone who served 20 years as a Flt Lt. To invest that as an airline pilot then you would need to stash away £25k a year - BA are one of the best when it comes to employer contributions, at 15% (just recently went up to this) so you would need to invest £21,250 per year for the whole 20 year period to get that Flt Lt equivalent pension.
I hope that made sense? Sometimes I wish I had known more about AVCs back in the late 90s than I do now, as I really should have invested instead of throwing it down my neck in beer on Red Flag!
Honestly, even the AFPS15 pension is way better. No, High_Expect, I don’t think you’re a freakin’ idjit if you have got one of those ME jobs with a £200k tax free ticket - but if you are working for less than £100k for a bucket and spade brigade, then I reserve my judgement!
When you say that all you need to do in order to match a Flt Lt pension is invest 150,000-200,000 then again, you should maybe revisit your maths (yes I do understand the principle of compounding). Maybe our definitions of a Flt Lt pension differ.
A £200,000 ‘pension pot’ giving a guaranteed income according to the Prudential website (one of the more reliable companies) estimates:
Pension pot size at age 60: £200,000
Take 25% tax-free cash as a lump sum: £50,000
Amount used to buy an annuity: £150,000
To provide a guaranteed yearly income for the rest of your life of: £6,800
So you have saved £200,000 over a 20 year period to achieve roughly the same as AFPS has at 20/40 - but the AFPS will pay you substantially more when you actually finish working. To get the same deal then the Govt Actuary Dept believe that you would need to invest £500,000(ish) to get the same sort of pension amounts in retirement as someone who served 20 years as a Flt Lt. To invest that as an airline pilot then you would need to stash away £25k a year - BA are one of the best when it comes to employer contributions, at 15% (just recently went up to this) so you would need to invest £21,250 per year for the whole 20 year period to get that Flt Lt equivalent pension.
I hope that made sense? Sometimes I wish I had known more about AVCs back in the late 90s than I do now, as I really should have invested instead of throwing it down my neck in beer on Red Flag!
Honestly, even the AFPS15 pension is way better. No, High_Expect, I don’t think you’re a freakin’ idjit if you have got one of those ME jobs with a £200k tax free ticket - but if you are working for less than £100k for a bucket and spade brigade, then I reserve my judgement!
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Bob Viking and High_Expect
Yup, I again agree with Bob. So let’s say you are a Flt Lt that joined in 2007 under AFPS05 and plan to leave in 2027 under AFPS15. On today’s figures you could have a £7k per year EDP and a tax free lump sum of £45k at your 20/40 point. At age 55 the EDP would go up to £8.5k (with Index Linking applied to that amount over the subsequent 15 years that have passed), then at age 65 it would become £10k (again index linked from today’s figures). At age 67 that pension jumps again to £18k (again index linked for inflation from today’s calculated amount). Or you could wipe out that EDP tax free lump sum through reverse commutation to raise all of these figures by about an extra £2-3k per year for life.
A £200,000 ‘pension pot’ giving a guaranteed income according to the Prudential website (one of the more reliable companies) estimates:
Pension pot size at age 60: £200,000
Take 25% tax-free cash as a lump sum: £50,000
Amount used to buy an annuity: £150,000
To provide a guaranteed yearly income for the rest of your life of: £6,800
So you have saved £200,000 over a 20 year period to achieve roughly the same as AFPS has at 20/40 - but the AFPS will pay you substantially more when you actually finish working. To get the same deal then the Govt Actuary Dept believe that you would need to invest £500,000(ish) to get the same sort of pension amounts in retirement as someone who served 20 years as a Flt Lt. To invest that as an airline pilot then you would need to stash away £25k a year - BA are one of the best when it comes to employer contributions, at 15% (just recently went up to this) so you would need to invest £21,250 per year for the whole 20 year period to get that Flt Lt equivalent pension.
I hope that made sense? Sometimes I wish I had known more about AVCs back in the late 90s than I do now, as I really should have invested instead of throwing it down my neck in beer on Red Flag!
Honestly, even the AFPS15 pension is way better. No, High_Expect, I don’t think you’re a freakin’ idjit if you have got one of those ME jobs with a £200k tax free ticket - but if you are working for less than £100k for a bucket and spade brigade, then I reserve my judgement!
Yup, I again agree with Bob. So let’s say you are a Flt Lt that joined in 2007 under AFPS05 and plan to leave in 2027 under AFPS15. On today’s figures you could have a £7k per year EDP and a tax free lump sum of £45k at your 20/40 point. At age 55 the EDP would go up to £8.5k (with Index Linking applied to that amount over the subsequent 15 years that have passed), then at age 65 it would become £10k (again index linked from today’s figures). At age 67 that pension jumps again to £18k (again index linked for inflation from today’s calculated amount). Or you could wipe out that EDP tax free lump sum through reverse commutation to raise all of these figures by about an extra £2-3k per year for life.
A £200,000 ‘pension pot’ giving a guaranteed income according to the Prudential website (one of the more reliable companies) estimates:
Pension pot size at age 60: £200,000
Take 25% tax-free cash as a lump sum: £50,000
Amount used to buy an annuity: £150,000
To provide a guaranteed yearly income for the rest of your life of: £6,800
So you have saved £200,000 over a 20 year period to achieve roughly the same as AFPS has at 20/40 - but the AFPS will pay you substantially more when you actually finish working. To get the same deal then the Govt Actuary Dept believe that you would need to invest £500,000(ish) to get the same sort of pension amounts in retirement as someone who served 20 years as a Flt Lt. To invest that as an airline pilot then you would need to stash away £25k a year - BA are one of the best when it comes to employer contributions, at 15% (just recently went up to this) so you would need to invest £21,250 per year for the whole 20 year period to get that Flt Lt equivalent pension.
I hope that made sense? Sometimes I wish I had known more about AVCs back in the late 90s than I do now, as I really should have invested instead of throwing it down my neck in beer on Red Flag!
Honestly, even the AFPS15 pension is way better. No, High_Expect, I don’t think you’re a freakin’ idjit if you have got one of those ME jobs with a £200k tax free ticket - but if you are working for less than £100k for a bucket and spade brigade, then I reserve my judgement!
This is all after having a nice life instead of sucking up your third no notice detachment in a year in the sandpit and only being able to afford economy Long haul. That’s if your wife hasn’t walked off with the milkman after your third no notice det and got your posting at short notice to the sceptered isle or Lossiemouth.
How much do you exactly need to live at 85, if you make it that long? The levels of stress on the front line will see to knocking years off your life, just as much if not more an airline job will. Not entirely sure the DU dust and the other crap (Basra’s GOSPs, et al) I was exposed to on tour is great for longetivity.
Personally, proud of my service but the RAF is currently a shell of its former self from when I joined. I refused to be continually flogged into the ground to carry other people’s mistakes when a harder line with incompetence would sort things out overnight.
Last edited by VinRouge; 7th Jul 2019 at 19:19.