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Welbeck Sixth Form Defence College to close in 2021

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Welbeck Sixth Form Defence College to close in 2021

Old 13th Mar 2019, 02:30
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Welbeck Sixth Form Defence College to close in 2021

The Governmentís shock decision to close Welbeck Sixth Form Defence College has triggered an outpouring of anger.
Newspaper report
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 09:03
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Welbeck

Shouldnít have been too much of a surprise as it actually produced very few engineers for the Services relative to the cost. This not helped by an expensive PFI arrangement (arenít they all?). Consequently, each graduate commissioning cost a huge amount to educate. There are many better ways to achieve the aim more effectively, efficiently and economically. I understand the savings will be used by the Serivces for a STEM Graduate Inflow Scheme, which will doubtless achieve more at less cost.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 10:05
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Originally Posted by Rheinstorff View Post
Shouldnít have been too much of a surprise as it actually produced very few engineers for the Services relative to the cost. This not helped by an expensive PFI arrangement (arenít they all?). Consequently, each graduate commissioning cost a huge amount to educate. There are many better ways to achieve the aim more effectively, efficiently and economically. I understand the savings will be used by the Serivces for a STEM Graduate Inflow Scheme, which will doubtless achieve more at less cost.
The STEM scheme will be far more successful. Course, guv.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:38
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The alternative being to stick with a failing scheme that is unnecessarily expensive when the money could be spent on something more productive... Course, guv, that makes spectacular sense. Iím staggered that it didnít occur to anyone to just let it keep on wasting taxpayersí money.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:50
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Its that old argument about the bean counters knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. There is I suppose a comprison to the decline of University Air Squadrons (There are now fewer and the students get less flying), or the demise of Air Cadet Gliding.

The VALUE is that you produce a generation of individuals, many of whom move on to play decisive roles in society and think highly of the military.

And of course if the individuals were not attending Welbeck then they would be attending 6th form somewhere else so although the Army would not be paying, the government would.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 11:51
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Originally Posted by Rheinstorff View Post
The alternative being to stick with a failing scheme that is unnecessarily expensive when the money could be spent on something more productive... Course, guv, that makes spectacular sense. Iím staggered that it didnít occur to anyone to just let it keep on wasting taxpayersí money.
And many would be surprised at the naivety of anyone believing that it would be spent on anything to replace the current scheme.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 12:09
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I must admit I had no idea that Welbeck had changed from its original format, which was a sort of mini-Sandhurst for army officer cadets who were destined for the technical corps of the army. A school chum of mine went there in the early 60s and ended up as a half colonel in the Royal Signals.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 14:00
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Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO View Post
Its that old argument about the bean counters knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. There is I suppose a comprison to the decline of University Air Squadrons (There are now fewer and the students get less flying), or the demise of Air Cadet Gliding.

The VALUE is that you produce a generation of individuals, many of whom move on to play decisive roles in society and think highly of the military.

And of course if the individuals were not attending Welbeck then they would be attending 6th form somewhere else so although the Army would not be paying, the government would.
Brilliant. Excellent post!
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 16:19
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Originally Posted by ASRAAMTOO View Post
Its that old argument about the bean counters knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing. There is I suppose a comprison to the decline of University Air Squadrons (There are now fewer and the students get less flying), or the demise of Air Cadet Gliding.

The VALUE is that you produce a generation of individuals, many of whom move on to play decisive roles in society and think highly of the military.

And of course if the individuals were not attending Welbeck then they would be attending 6th form somewhere else so although the Army would not be paying, the government would.
Quite, but if itís actual VALUE is supposed to be in producing sufficient people who become engineering officers and it doesnít, itís not good VALUE. It might well generate goodwill, but there are doubtless considerably cheaper ways of doing that and some might even have a better effect.

If those that exploit the Welbeck system, but donít join up, are switched-on, the Scheme might actually be harmful as they recognise it as the unnecessary waste of taxpayersí money that it is. So, perhaps that VALUE proposition isnít as simple as it seems at first pass?

Iím not and never have been a bean counter, but I have spent a considerable amount of time on the front line wondering why we lack all we need, but noting the wasted money on schemes that donít deliver. Maybe Iíve misunderstood where real VALUE should lie, and itís not important where the fighting is done. Iím sure someone will be along shortly on here to put me right.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 20:05
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Originally Posted by Rheinstorff View Post


Quite, but if itís actual VALUE is supposed to be in producing sufficient people who become engineering officers and it doesnít, itís not good VALUE. It might well generate goodwill, but there are doubtless considerably cheaper ways of doing that and some might even have a better effect.

If those that exploit the Welbeck system, but donít join up, are switched-on, the Scheme might actually be harmful as they recognise it as the unnecessary waste of taxpayersí money that it is. So, perhaps that VALUE proposition isnít as simple as it seems at first pass?

Iím not and never have been a bean counter, but I have spent a considerable amount of time on the front line wondering why we lack all we need, but noting the wasted money on schemes that donít deliver. Maybe Iíve misunderstood where real VALUE should lie, and itís not important where the fighting is done. Iím sure someone will be along shortly on here to put me right.
Perhaps the issue here is not Welbeck, but the 'offer' from the MOD and the services?
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 20:28
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A nephew went to Welbeck, then Newcastle and is now a Lt, RN Engineer aiming for SSN/SSBN. Money well spent.
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Old 13th Mar 2019, 20:54
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I think my only real concern here is that the STEM scheme that replaces it will turn out to be just another bursary scheme. Providing technical bursaries to individuals who have decided they are intent on a technical career in the military whilst at university will not increase the recruitment pool. It is the 'they would have joined anyway' argument. I do acknowledge it is definitely a tricky problem to solve. In terms of the value proposition, where do you draw the line? Should we stop funding the UAS since many members of the UAS do not go on to serve military careers?
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 11:50
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There is I suppose a comprison to the decline of University Air Squadrons
And we should not forget that the original idea of UASs was NOT as a recruitment tool - if you wanted to join for a career you went to Cranwell.

Trenchard's idea was to expose the future "movers and shakers" of this country (fewer than 5% then went to Uni) to the ways and ideas of the fledgling RAF. Similar argument holds for Air Cadets - the more important alumni of both organisations are - IMHO - those who don't join but know about us.
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Old 14th Mar 2019, 14:50
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teeteringhead wrote:
And we should not forget that the original idea of UASs was NOT as a recruitment tool - if you wanted to join for a career you went to Cranwell.
Until around 1968, when it was decided that more officers needed to have had university education. So the UAS scheme expanded to cope. Some of us had to do a year as Flt Cdts before departing for university; when we returned a few years later, it was clear that Cranwell simply wasn't the same any more. But the legacy of our UAS time meant, for pilots, a shorter JP course - although there was still some marching around on the parade ground to be done, which rather interfered with our flying training progress....

There was also some secondary modern place in Bedfordshire, I gather.

Regrettably, the excellent UAS scheme I knew both as a student and years later as a QFI has now been utterly destroyed.
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Old 15th Mar 2019, 01:17
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Another part of my past about to disappear, then - I did my trade training at Garat's Hay/ Woodhouse Eaves surrounded by Scalybacks prior to 14 months paid holiday in Cyprus (and then transferring to a different organisation starting with 16 weeks at a Secondary Modern in Bedfordshire, which I believe is ALSO slated to close). As I rapidly approach retirement, I get to appreciate the way my current job lets me get to see parts of the country in very great detail. While approaching East Midlands from the south I thought I'd take a look at the old barracks and was surprised to see it looking spruced up, complete with a Gazelle on a stick by what used to be the main gate; a high pass (500ft) allowed me to see the extent of the changes. After landing I looked up the available information on Duckduckgo and found that Garat's Hay was where the 6th form college had been moved - lovely site. Wonder what will happen now - yet more wartime history (Y Section) about to be become even more remote.
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