Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial
The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not.
KenV,
Couple of points if I may. In my experience, cognitive failure is likely exactly when overloaded and capacity sapped - we revert to the familiar (how many times have I used, for example, the wrong downwind checks....Bulldog in a Grob Tutor comes immediately to mind). AH was a low hour,low currency Hunter pilot with much more familiarity with the JP - I can see a distinct possibility he had a JP moment or something akin to it. As for CI being caused by a transient physiological issue, you are right that the court agreed - but only on the high bar of certainty necessary for a guilty verdict for the serious crime he was accused of. I would venture that a lower burden of proof at civil action level may well see a different outcome....
Couple of points if I may. In my experience, cognitive failure is likely exactly when overloaded and capacity sapped - we revert to the familiar (how many times have I used, for example, the wrong downwind checks....Bulldog in a Grob Tutor comes immediately to mind). AH was a low hour,low currency Hunter pilot with much more familiarity with the JP - I can see a distinct possibility he had a JP moment or something akin to it. As for CI being caused by a transient physiological issue, you are right that the court agreed - but only on the high bar of certainty necessary for a guilty verdict for the serious crime he was accused of. I would venture that a lower burden of proof at civil action level may well see a different outcome....
Its not quite the same thing, but there is a Medical test for Dementia, the Doctor will ask a series of simple questions then while doing something like checking Blood Pressure will ask the questions again to see if the same answers are forthcoming.
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Originally Posted by Wrathmonk
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
many patients who spend time in an intensive care unit have retrograde amnesia - presumably as a consequence of the precipitating event and the various sedative or analgesic drugs they receive.
Caramba
orca, you ask:
I posted on 27 March
I suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts
airsound
Jury’s Findings
......
Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at?
A genuine question as I can’t find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasn’t there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon.
Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at?
A genuine question as I can’t find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasn’t there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon.
Bearing in mind that the jury (of eleven people) came to a unanimous verdict after about seven hours of consideration, it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecution’s ..... Incidentally, the reason for there being eleven jurors, rather than twelve, was that, on 29 January, one juror fell ill and was taken to hospital by ambulance. She was excused further jury service.
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Originally Posted by airsound
it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecution’s
Originally Posted by airsound
orca, you ask:
I posted on 27 MarchI suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts
airsound
I posted on 27 MarchI suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts
airsound
If we do ever find out what the jury thought in this case, someone has broken the law.
There’s an immense amount of knowledge and experience on show in this thread - in fact it’s probably a good example of PPRuNe at its best! (Albeit on a tragic subject).
I have some questions that I’d like to put to some of the assembled experts. My queries are best illustrated by reference to a video (one of many) of the flight.
Note: the video is OK to watch to 50 seconds. From 50 seconds it jumps to just prior the crash and the crash itself, so, if you don't want to see the crash, do not go beyond 50 seconds
Questions:
Time 12:21:56.5 in Figure 11 corresponds with 39 second in the video.
How to account for the abrupt power reductions at:
airsound
I have some questions that I’d like to put to some of the assembled experts. My queries are best illustrated by reference to a video (one of many) of the flight.
Questions:
- The RAF Centre of Aviation Medicine (RAF CAM) report for the AAIB suggests that, in the run-up to the accident manoeuvre (the bent loop), the aircraft never exceeded 2.7g. Looking at the video, does that look likely? In fact, in his second report, a prosecution expert witness, Wg Cdr Nicholas Green, who is the RAF Duty Holder for g risks, had estimated the maximum g at 2.4. He admitted in cross-examination that that had been incorrect. Also, the long left turn after the derry is not level, but descending, and downwind.
- Do you notice anything strange about the rate of pitch change at 43 seconds in the video?
- From 43 seconds to 50 seconds, does it look as if anyone is really flying the aircraft?
Time 12:21:56.5 in Figure 11 corresponds with 39 second in the video.
How to account for the abrupt power reductions at:
- 12:21:49 [32 seconds in the video, at the end of the left turn]
- 12:21:59 – 12:22:00 [42 – 43 seconds in the pull-up, coincident with pitch above] ??
airsound
Is it possible that the power was being adjusted to provide the anticipated parameters for the next manoeuvre? Is it possible that the anticipated parameters were incorrect for the display aircraft?
Originally Posted by Wander00
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
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Originally Posted by Wander00
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
As an ATPL holder I tried in vain to understand the Engineering evidence about the autopilot unserviceability. I was lost, and I am sure the Judge and Jury were too.
The Judge kept remarking about "The Plane" which made me cringe every time he said it.
How the jury (12 "locals" from Uxbridge, if you know what I mean) arrived at their conclusion that he was innocent of one charge but guilty of the other I do not know. Both charges were almost identical.
At the time I had the same thoughts as wanderer00 and felt that this should never be allowed to happen again. Alas...
Originally Posted by 3wheels
I attended the trial of the B747 pilot who nearly hit the Penta Hotel at Heathrow.It was held near West Drayton.
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As an expert witness (in IT forensics) I can confirm that taking any expert knowledge and transferring that to the jury is becoming a bigger and bigger challenge as life becomes more complex but the jury system remains. When training other potential experts, I tell them about my mum who has never used a computer and does not even have a cashpoint card. She can be called for jury duty at any time. She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required.
She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required.
The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required
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Originally Posted by megan
Put in place a jury of folks who have expertise in the field of endeavour ie in this case a jury of FJ folk with display experience?
