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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

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Shoreham Airshow Crash Trial

Old 1st Apr 2019, 18:29
  #381 (permalink)  
 
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The CI issue was simple. There are no medical tests to prove whether it occurred or not.
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 19:21
  #382 (permalink)  
 
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KenV,
Couple of points if I may. In my experience, cognitive failure is likely exactly when overloaded and capacity sapped - we revert to the familiar (how many times have I used, for example, the wrong downwind checks....Bulldog in a Grob Tutor comes immediately to mind). AH was a low hour,low currency Hunter pilot with much more familiarity with the JP - I can see a distinct possibility he had a JP moment or something akin to it. As for CI being caused by a transient physiological issue, you are right that the court agreed - but only on the high bar of certainty necessary for a guilty verdict for the serious crime he was accused of. I would venture that a lower burden of proof at civil action level may well see a different outcome....
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 09:30
  #383 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia?
I've forgotten....
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 09:41
  #384 (permalink)  
 
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Its not quite the same thing, but there is a Medical test for Dementia, the Doctor will ask a series of simple questions then while doing something like checking Blood Pressure will ask the questions again to see if the same answers are forthcoming.

FB
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 13:24
  #385 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wrathmonk View Post
Anyone know what the medical test is for amnesia? I assume it's not as simple as just saying "I don't remember"? Can a scan pick up damage in the relevant part of the brain?
There is no definitive test. Occasionally, patients with retrograde amnesia ie before the precipitating event, are found to have hippocampal abnormalities. But thatís it. Additionally, if and when memory returns, the recollections are often jumbled or inaccurate, and hence are unreliable.

many patients who spend time in an intensive care unit have retrograde amnesia - presumably as a consequence of the precipitating event and the various sedative or analgesic drugs they receive.

Caramba

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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 13:56
  #386 (permalink)  

 
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orca, you ask:
Juryís Findings
......
Did the jury really unanimously agree that a CI had occurred and could clearly be attributed to environmental factors - or did they decide (unanimously or by majority) that, given the evidence proposed, a Guilty verdict for 11 counts of Gross Negligence Manslaughter could not be arrived at?

A genuine question as I canít find any transcript of proceedings that would let me know; and I wasnít there; and as I understand it the open source accounts are not to be relied upon.
I posted on 27 March
Bearing in mind that the jury (of eleven people) came to a unanimous verdict after about seven hours of consideration, it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecutionís ..... Incidentally, the reason for there being eleven jurors, rather than twelve, was that, on 29 January, one juror fell ill and was taken to hospital by ambulance. She was excused further jury service.
I suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts

airsound
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 21:21
  #387 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airsound
it seems clear that they accepted the defence arguments over the prosecutionís
I don't think you can even say that much, especially the word 'over'. The defence arguments need only be strong enough to introduce reasonable doubt, which could be achieved while still considering the prosecution's arguments to be stronger as a whole.
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Old 2nd Apr 2019, 22:02
  #388 (permalink)  

 
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Easy - semantics!

airsound
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 09:53
  #389 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by airsound View Post
orca, you ask:

I posted on 27 MarchI suggest that that is all that can be deduced from the jury's verdict. As I presume you know, an English jury's considerations are secret for life, and we are extremely unlikely ever to find out what actually led to their verdicts

airsound
...and in Scotland too. Before we were allowed to go after the trial I sat on (attempted murder, a fascinating insight into the whole process (the legal process that is, not the attempted murder process!!)), we were strongly reminded of that fact, and the consequences of doing so. Everything we had in the jury room relevant to the trial (notes, handouts, statements etc) were removed and shredded. Some of us went for a beer afterwards and realised we could no longer talk about it, even amongst ourselves!

If we do ever find out what the jury thought in this case, someone has broken the law.
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:11
  #390 (permalink)  

 
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Thereís an immense amount of knowledge and experience on show in this thread - in fact itís probably a good example of PPRuNe at its best! (Albeit on a tragic subject).

I have some questions that Iíd like to put to some of the assembled experts. My queries are best illustrated by reference to a video (one of many) of the flight.
Note: the video is OK to watch to 50 seconds. From 50 seconds it jumps to just prior the crash and the crash itself, so, if you don't want to see the crash, do not go beyond 50 seconds

Questions:
  1. The RAF Centre of Aviation Medicine (RAF CAM) report for the AAIB suggests that, in the run-up to the accident manoeuvre (the bent loop), the aircraft never exceeded 2.7g. Looking at the video, does that look likely? In fact, in his second report, a prosecution expert witness, Wg Cdr Nicholas Green, who is the RAF Duty Holder for g risks, had estimated the maximum g at 2.4. He admitted in cross-examination that that had been incorrect. Also, the long left turn after the derry is not level, but descending, and downwind.
  2. Do you notice anything strange about the rate of pitch change at 43 seconds in the video?
  3. From 43 seconds to 50 seconds, does it look as if anyone is really flying the aircraft?
If you now correlate the engine noise from the video with Figure 11 in the AAIB report (below), more questions arise:
Time 12:21:56.5 in Figure 11 corresponds with 39 second in the video.
How to account for the abrupt power reductions at:
  1. 12:21:49 [32 seconds in the video, at the end of the left turn]
  2. 12:21:59 Ė 12:22:00 [42 Ė 43 seconds in the pull-up, coincident with pitch above] ??


airsound
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Old 3rd Apr 2019, 18:30
  #391 (permalink)  
 
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Is it possible that the power was being adjusted to provide the anticipated parameters for the next manoeuvre? Is it possible that the anticipated parameters were incorrect for the display aircraft?
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 13:47
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One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 14:01
  #393 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Wander00 View Post
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
As I understand the legal system insofar as jury trials are concerned, that is why each side calls expert witnesses (or can). That trial is a very different animal than the AAIB's investigation, and as I understand the UK system it is also different from the coroner's report. (inquest?)
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 17:03
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Originally Posted by Wander00 View Post
One wonders if such technical issues are best judged by a jury of lay people, perhaps 2 or 3 judges with an expert advisor might be more appropriate
I attended the trial of the B747 pilot who nearly hit the Penta Hotel at Heathrow.It was held near West Drayton.

As an ATPL holder I tried in vain to understand the Engineering evidence about the autopilot unserviceability. I was lost, and I am sure the Judge and Jury were too.

The Judge kept remarking about "The Plane" which made me cringe every time he said it.

How the jury (12 "locals" from Uxbridge, if you know what I mean) arrived at their conclusion that he was innocent of one charge but guilty of the other I do not know. Both charges were almost identical.

At the time I had the same thoughts as wanderer00 and felt that this should never be allowed to happen again. Alas...
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 20:54
  #395 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 3wheels View Post
I attended the trial of the B747 pilot who nearly hit the Penta Hotel at Heathrow.It was held near West Drayton.
Forgotten about that......didn't he commit suicide a couple of years afterwards?
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Old 4th Apr 2019, 23:11
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Yes he did. A real tradegy all round.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 09:14
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As an expert witness (in IT forensics) I can confirm that taking any expert knowledge and transferring that to the jury is becoming a bigger and bigger challenge as life becomes more complex but the jury system remains. When training other potential experts, I tell them about my mum who has never used a computer and does not even have a cashpoint card. She can be called for jury duty at any time. She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required.
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Old 5th Apr 2019, 09:38
  #398 (permalink)  
 
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She would be as lost in the World of gigabytes, IP addresses, spoofing etc as she would be in the World of fighter jet aerobatics. When giving evidence, I always imagine that my mum is in the jury. We can't assume they know anything. The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required.
If I learned one thing from my jury service it is that I don't ever want to be tried by a jury. The thought that my life could be decided by any of the juries that I sat on is frankly terrifying.
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 02:03
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The concept of "twelve good men and true" is a nice and noble one but IMHO, it really struggles in our modern, complex environment.Change is required
Trouble is, who do you get to sit in judgement in this complex world. Even a Judge would be lost. Put in place a jury of folks who have expertise in the field of endeavour ie in this case a jury of FJ folk with display experience?
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Old 6th Apr 2019, 08:52
  #400 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
Put in place a jury of folks who have expertise in the field of endeavour ie in this case a jury of FJ folk with display experience?
And get them to agree?

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