Harrier Down
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If its all got to go wrong, then I guess thats the way to do it - no serious injuries, no loss of life and no damage other than loss of the jet.
Get well soon Tony - it was nice to see you at RIAT & FI2002 and I hope you're back soon.
(Wish I'd taken a few more photos of that GR7 with the pale blue tail last week now - anyone know if the squadron has a spare display jet suitably enlivened...??)
'BLW'
Get well soon Tony - it was nice to see you at RIAT & FI2002 and I hope you're back soon.
(Wish I'd taken a few more photos of that GR7 with the pale blue tail last week now - anyone know if the squadron has a spare display jet suitably enlivened...??)
'BLW'
Just a numbered other
How fortuitous that this happened at this show and not whilst hovering over, say, the Brands Hatch paddock. Wouldn't have been much fun landing back on the wreck if it was a fireball!
Dimensional: 'fairly controlled impact.' Quite a feat from a parachute!
Hope our pointy friend is OK, well done mate.
Dimensional: 'fairly controlled impact.' Quite a feat from a parachute!
Hope our pointy friend is OK, well done mate.
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1. Well done that man! Get well soon. I pooh myself just sitting on pinned bang seats!!.. and will faint when they take the pins out!!
2. This is about the third GR-7 crash I can remember when the donkey stopped as the aircraft was in the hover. OK, so no surprise there with the high power settings in use, but is anyone going to re-visit the AUW limitations for hovering flight any time soon??. Weren't they reduced a while ago anyway?
3. Can a GR-7 eat a sea-gull in one sitting?
2. This is about the third GR-7 crash I can remember when the donkey stopped as the aircraft was in the hover. OK, so no surprise there with the high power settings in use, but is anyone going to re-visit the AUW limitations for hovering flight any time soon??. Weren't they reduced a while ago anyway?
3. Can a GR-7 eat a sea-gull in one sitting?
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From what I saw on the TV the 'waving to the crowd' that the BBC newsreader (Darren) mentioned was just the pilot raising his arms to steady himself before hitting the water and / or aircraft, which was right beneath him.
Secondly surely the airframe can be salvaged and reused? I don't expect the electronic equipment will be much use now but I would have thought that the airframe could be saved. Just how much of an airframe can be used after being dipped (fairly gently) in salt water?
Secondly surely the airframe can be salvaged and reused? I don't expect the electronic equipment will be much use now but I would have thought that the airframe could be saved. Just how much of an airframe can be used after being dipped (fairly gently) in salt water?
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Flap 5 said:
Just how much of an airframe can be used after being dipped (fairly gently) in salt water?
In the case of one particular Puma that has been to the bottom of the English Channel and back, almost all of it.
Well 2/3 of it anyway.
I saw said machine at Westlands with 3 serials on it!!
T_M
In the case of one particular Puma that has been to the bottom of the English Channel and back, almost all of it.
Well 2/3 of it anyway.
I saw said machine at Westlands with 3 serials on it!!
T_M
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Skylark, yes there is usually a spare ac without the blue fin, I belive it was at Norwich from where the fated jet flew. Unfortunately there is only one display pilot and I don't think he'll be flying again for a while. As for recovering the ac, I doubt it as the last one dunked off a CVS was pulled out and fresh water washed on the deck but still wasn't recoverable. Glad Tony's ok though he's a true proffesional.
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I'd be surprised if this one is even viable as an RAF museum exhibit after that impact! Looked like the nose and port wing damn near broke off in the middle of the splash, they flexed so much.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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I have just seen an ITV news clip showing a side view of the event
From this film the jet efflux is impinging normally on the sea as the aircraft decelerates, then suddenly the sea becomes calm underneath (as smoketoomuch said earlier) at which point the aircraft starts to sink BUT also accelerate rapidly forward.
This forward acceleration would suggest to me a running motor but a reduced nozzle angle. Then as the aircraft gets just above the water the sea behind the aircraft is disturbed again by the efflux - apparently pointing fairly well aft,
I would be surprised if that donk stopped,
I would not be surprised if the BOI says the air motor (the power control unit that adjusts the nozzle angle) ran the nozzles aft.
Whatever the cause there was no better place for such goings on.
From this film the jet efflux is impinging normally on the sea as the aircraft decelerates, then suddenly the sea becomes calm underneath (as smoketoomuch said earlier) at which point the aircraft starts to sink BUT also accelerate rapidly forward.
This forward acceleration would suggest to me a running motor but a reduced nozzle angle. Then as the aircraft gets just above the water the sea behind the aircraft is disturbed again by the efflux - apparently pointing fairly well aft,
I would be surprised if that donk stopped,
I would not be surprised if the BOI says the air motor (the power control unit that adjusts the nozzle angle) ran the nozzles aft.
Whatever the cause there was no better place for such goings on.
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Apols if this has been posted elsewhere, but just heard from a chum at Wittering that the hover jets have been grounded there pending further investigation.
If there is only one display pilot, was he the one at Farnborough last week? If so, I take it back, you no longer owe me a beer for deafening me, I'll buy you one in the mess at Witt/Cott next time I'm up.
Good show getting out promptly. Are you logging the extra 2 seconds then? Hope your out and about soon.
If there is only one display pilot, was he the one at Farnborough last week? If so, I take it back, you no longer owe me a beer for deafening me, I'll buy you one in the mess at Witt/Cott next time I'm up.
Good show getting out promptly. Are you logging the extra 2 seconds then? Hope your out and about soon.
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What does a GR7-driver snack on?
Pringles...'once you pop, you just can't stop'!!!
Sorry! Anyone know how/when they plan to recover her, surely too heavy for a wokka, especially full of water.
150' for a further.
Pringles...'once you pop, you just can't stop'!!!
Sorry! Anyone know how/when they plan to recover her, surely too heavy for a wokka, especially full of water.
150' for a further.
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Heard on the local TV news yesterday that the pilots' FRCs were washed up on the beach turned to the emerg procs section. It was being implied by this that the pilot knew he was in trouble and had flipped them over on to the appropriate page.
Implies to me that either:
a. Normal to leave FRCs open on this page ( as I do, 'cos you never know when you'll need them in a hurry ).
b. Harrier pilots can turn to the right page really quickly.
c. They just happened to fall open onto that page.
Any thoughts from the Harrier community?
Implies to me that either:
a. Normal to leave FRCs open on this page ( as I do, 'cos you never know when you'll need them in a hurry ).
b. Harrier pilots can turn to the right page really quickly.
c. They just happened to fall open onto that page.
Any thoughts from the Harrier community?
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I have a question that may appear to some to be obvious. I am not an aviator so please bear with me!
Why did the pilot not wait until he was safely(?) on the water and then undo his straps, cockpit and get out. It is training whereby the pilot reacts as programmed, or does the pilot make an analysis of what the best outcome will be?
This is not a wind up, so no funny comments about my understanding of aircraft please.
Why did the pilot not wait until he was safely(?) on the water and then undo his straps, cockpit and get out. It is training whereby the pilot reacts as programmed, or does the pilot make an analysis of what the best outcome will be?
This is not a wind up, so no funny comments about my understanding of aircraft please.
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To eject or not?
I once witnessed a Harrier crash from the hover in RAFG. The wingtip nozzles had decided to do their own thing and it rolled out of control. The pilot ejected out of the envelope (horizontally) and was killed. The firecrews went straight for the cockpit, and within seconds the aircraft fire was extinguished, the cockpit area being virtually unmarked by fire.
The popular perception was that if the pilot had remained, a sore but alive body would have been removed from the aircraft.
I am not a FJ jock, but my perception is that in the split second that you have to make a decision, the yellow and black handle will always win the debate, and besides which there is a new tie in it for you.
A good way to answer the previous question is that an out of control aircraft is totally unpredictable (SU27 crash) and best left behind. The fact that in this case it appears to have been a sedate impact, could not, and cannot be taken for granted.
Hope that answers your question. FJ mates feel free to chip in.
T_M
The popular perception was that if the pilot had remained, a sore but alive body would have been removed from the aircraft.
I am not a FJ jock, but my perception is that in the split second that you have to make a decision, the yellow and black handle will always win the debate, and besides which there is a new tie in it for you.
A good way to answer the previous question is that an out of control aircraft is totally unpredictable (SU27 crash) and best left behind. The fact that in this case it appears to have been a sedate impact, could not, and cannot be taken for granted.
Hope that answers your question. FJ mates feel free to chip in.
T_M
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There can be no better advert for right man, right training and right seat!
Some thoughts on previous posts:
FRC’s could just as easily have been washed ashore open at walk round checks (I know; we would have seen him), the sea is pretty good at washing stuff around.
As a rotary bod I know little of ejection seats, however, if sat in a 100’ hover and suffering a catastrophic loss of power I would dearly love to depart the location via Martin Bakers finest rather than pole my way to the scene of the crash!
Speaking to an oppo on the SAR force there’s been some debate as to this claim that the stretcher was turned down. Seems that back injury is assumed and that all FJ mates are briefed this.
Once again well done.
Some thoughts on previous posts:
FRC’s could just as easily have been washed ashore open at walk round checks (I know; we would have seen him), the sea is pretty good at washing stuff around.
As a rotary bod I know little of ejection seats, however, if sat in a 100’ hover and suffering a catastrophic loss of power I would dearly love to depart the location via Martin Bakers finest rather than pole my way to the scene of the crash!
Speaking to an oppo on the SAR force there’s been some debate as to this claim that the stretcher was turned down. Seems that back injury is assumed and that all FJ mates are briefed this.
Once again well done.
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Hotinfo,
The FRC's (Flight Reference Cards), that all pilots in the RAF learn to know back to front, are there to be followed to the letter unless there are mitigating circumstances to not do so. Some emergency actions are extremely time critical, esp whilst hovering the Harrier, and by virtue have to be known instinctively. If indeed the cause of the crash last week was a failure of the engine, the only course of action was ejection. This advice usually applies to any unrecoverable loss of control and when the 'donk' goes in the Harrier in the VSTOL regime, you have no control! It's a one-way lift and drops fast.
Hope that clears some of your question.....
Hope you're well Tony, hope to see you back soon.
BD
The FRC's (Flight Reference Cards), that all pilots in the RAF learn to know back to front, are there to be followed to the letter unless there are mitigating circumstances to not do so. Some emergency actions are extremely time critical, esp whilst hovering the Harrier, and by virtue have to be known instinctively. If indeed the cause of the crash last week was a failure of the engine, the only course of action was ejection. This advice usually applies to any unrecoverable loss of control and when the 'donk' goes in the Harrier in the VSTOL regime, you have no control! It's a one-way lift and drops fast.
Hope that clears some of your question.....
Hope you're well Tony, hope to see you back soon.
BD
Avoid imitations
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TigerMate,
Having flown a bang seat a few times myself (including more recent time after those halcyon 230 days) I personally wouldn't want to risk a crash landing on a live seat. It might go off, it might not, it might go off but malfunction etc etc. All a bit too unpredictable and there is no guarantee what the level of damage to the airframe and hence one's person is going to be anyway.
BTW,
We were on the same squadron back then unless you were hovering in Walter Wessex at the time! I arrived at EDUO to begin my tour just as the crash occurred. Particularly sad for me, the pilot (Nigel Storah) was an ex-creamie QFI I had previously flown with at 1FTS. He and I had an occasion to read FRCs together one dark night somewhere over South Yorkshire. We thought we were going to be required to land separately from the airframe shortly afterwards, but in the event we got safely back to Linton.
Having flown a bang seat a few times myself (including more recent time after those halcyon 230 days) I personally wouldn't want to risk a crash landing on a live seat. It might go off, it might not, it might go off but malfunction etc etc. All a bit too unpredictable and there is no guarantee what the level of damage to the airframe and hence one's person is going to be anyway.
BTW,
We were on the same squadron back then unless you were hovering in Walter Wessex at the time! I arrived at EDUO to begin my tour just as the crash occurred. Particularly sad for me, the pilot (Nigel Storah) was an ex-creamie QFI I had previously flown with at 1FTS. He and I had an occasion to read FRCs together one dark night somewhere over South Yorkshire. We thought we were going to be required to land separately from the airframe shortly afterwards, but in the event we got safely back to Linton.
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Good to see the seat works as advertised (or works as unadvertised as he would have had some downwards vector below MSEH).
My two cents worth on a couple of posts above:
The checklist turning up on the shore (can't use the word "beach" because it is in the UK ) on the right page must be purely chance. I think if the driver knew something was wrong and he had enough time to pull out the checklist then he would have knocked off the display earlier. In any case, it seemed to happen so fast that there didn't appear time to spit out the bold face actions let alone re-check them from the book.
As for following the jet into the drink, Hotinfo, the flight manual for the GR7 probably doesn't have much reliable advice on ditching, but it would have some good figures on ejection parameters. An uncontrolled landing is, by its nature, not something where one can know what the outcome would be. There was a good chance, in this case, that the jet could have been inverted in the water with the pilot unconcious or concious with the canopy stuck etc. The ejection 'D' is hammered into military pilots on ejection seat aircraft from day one. It is a case of "If I am below such and such a height and this or that happens I will eject". The idea is to not let you think too long about it as those few seconds of think time usually mean the difference between a successful ejection and a "non-successful" one. It's basically a case of "Ooh, something's gone wrong, I am below my pre-briefed height, let's step out". Hope that answers your question
My two cents worth on a couple of posts above:
The checklist turning up on the shore (can't use the word "beach" because it is in the UK
) on the right page must be purely chance. I think if the driver knew something was wrong and he had enough time to pull out the checklist then he would have knocked off the display earlier. In any case, it seemed to happen so fast that there didn't appear time to spit out the bold face actions let alone re-check them from the book.As for following the jet into the drink, Hotinfo, the flight manual for the GR7 probably doesn't have much reliable advice on ditching, but it would have some good figures on ejection parameters. An uncontrolled landing is, by its nature, not something where one can know what the outcome would be. There was a good chance, in this case, that the jet could have been inverted in the water with the pilot unconcious or concious with the canopy stuck etc. The ejection 'D' is hammered into military pilots on ejection seat aircraft from day one. It is a case of "If I am below such and such a height and this or that happens I will eject". The idea is to not let you think too long about it as those few seconds of think time usually mean the difference between a successful ejection and a "non-successful" one. It's basically a case of "Ooh, something's gone wrong, I am below my pre-briefed height, let's step out". Hope that answers your question