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Russia building up its forces in the Crimea

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Russia building up its forces in the Crimea

Old 10th Dec 2018, 08:57
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Russia building up its forces in the Crimea

See

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world...how/ar-BBQJMbZ
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:24
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Well they invaded and occupy Crimea so why should this come as any surprise.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:35
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
Well they invaded and occupy Crimea so why should this come as any surprise.
Most of the military forces in Crimea have lived there for decades as have their families before them. To them it has always been home.
They never got asked in 1954 to be handed over to Ukraine.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:44
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Don't think anyone other than Russia got a real say when the Soviet Union gripped the area - the USSR was not exactly famed for its democracy.

You probably need to quote a source when you say that most of the Russian forces in the Crimea have lived there for decades.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:45
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So then anywhere that Russian military have lived justifies an invasion?

So will we be taking our piece of Germany then?, or Canada, USA, etc or everywhere where the sun never set? I'm sure that China will be wanting to open discussions about Russia's western border!

IG

Last edited by Imagegear; 11th Dec 2018 at 04:00.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 10:54
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The Ukraine, including the Crimea area was granted independence in 1991. Russia also signed a security treaty with Ukraine in 1994, so winding the clock back to 1950's Soviet Union is utterly ridiculous and criminally naive.

What next racedo, all former USSR states belong to Russia?
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 12:35
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
Most of the military forces in Crimea have lived there for decades as have their families before them. To them it has always been home.
They never got asked in 1954 to be handed over to Ukraine.
You really ought to read the history of this area before making such a groundless statement.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 12:45
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Most of the military forces in Crimea have lived there for decades as have their families before them. To them it has always been home.
They never got asked in 1954 to be handed over to Ukraine.
Yes, all of the 'little green men' I saw looked to be over 64 years old.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 16:39
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
The Ukraine, including the Crimea area was granted independence in 1991. Russia also signed a security treaty with Ukraine in 1994, so winding the clock back to 1950's Soviet Union is utterly ridiculous and criminally naive.

What next racedo, all former USSR states belong to Russia?
In 1991 Crimean people voted for Crimean Soviet Socialist Republic but their rights weren't respected. In the vote for being part of Ukraine there was a 37% of vote for it. Hardly a people who wished to be part of the Ukraine, then or now.

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/05/06/w...m-ukraine.html Crimean parliment declared indpendence in 1992 and was thretaened with war by Kiev.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 16:41
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Originally Posted by Buster15 View Post
You really ought to read the history of this area before making such a groundless statement.
I have. People have a right to self determination do they not ?
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 18:01
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No they don't at anything below sovereign state level. In this case they are not self-determining or self-governing, they are now an annex of Russia.

In any case, you cannot spout self-determination and its status in international law when the very same international law was broken so grievously by a country that had accepted and signed an international treaty agreeing that this region was part of the Ukraine!

Don't you just love Russian trolls - this one lost his credibility from his very first post regarding the nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal - not the Russian government apparently, just hired muscle in the private sector.
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 20:53
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
No they don't at anything below sovereign state level. In this case they are not self-determining or self-governing, they are now an annex of Russia.

In any case, you cannot spout self-determination and its status in international law when the very same international law was broken so grievously by a country that had accepted and signed an international treaty agreeing that this region was part of the Ukraine!

Don't you just love Russian trolls - this one lost his credibility from his very first post regarding the nerve agent attack on Sergei Skripal - not the Russian government apparently, just hired muscle in the private sector.
You don't get to decide what self determination is. The people who vote decide within their own region or area. If they wish to join another country, of which they believe they are part of then that is up to them.

There is no legal basis in International Law to decide whom should have self determination and whom shouldn't.

As for it below Sovreign state level then what is Kosovo ?
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Old 10th Dec 2018, 21:23
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Self determination is a free choice without external compulsion. That is not what happened in Crimea with the little green men. International law and treaties were violated and the external compulsion was manifest. The Crimea did not gain any autonomy in the annexation and was far removed from any legal or just process. Again, Crimea did not seek or gain independence; the status quo is now enforced by Russia military forces and not by any free choice.

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Old 11th Dec 2018, 08:37
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Is Russia actively building forces in the Crimea? Would Russia use it as a stepping off point for an invasion of the Ukraine as a whole, alongside the Donetsk region?
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 11:08
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post
Self determination is a free choice without external compulsion. That is not what happened in Crimea with the little green men. International law and treaties were violated and the external compulsion was manifest. The Crimea did not gain any autonomy in the annexation and was far removed from any legal or just process. Again, Crimea did not seek or gain independence; the status quo is now enforced by Russia military forces and not by any free choice.
Right and when Crimeans did this in the 1990's they were threatened with full scale war.
There was a referndum in 2014, people voted to leave Ukraine.
Now 4 years later they are happy to be a part of Russia because were that not the case we would be reading of the Crimean Independence movement where thousands are protesting.
Crimeans sought Independence and then asked to join Russia, that is their right to do with their Independence what they want.

If Northern Ireland sought to join Republic of Ireland then you are saying it is NOT self determination because they didn't want to exist as a separate state ?

If another referendum under full United Nations occurred would you then agree with the result.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 11:17
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Originally Posted by unmanned_droid View Post
Is Russia actively building forces in the Crimea? Would Russia use it as a stepping off point for an invasion of the Ukraine as a whole, alongside the Donetsk region?
Russia could have invaded Ukraine in 2014 and got to Kiev with ease, a fact well known in the Pentagon. They would have come in from North, East, South and South West. There was no attempt to do so, nor were any forces put on alert to do so.

Poroshenko at moment needs martial law. Presidential election in March 2019 will see him lose heavily. The areas under martial law are all those areas where support is greatest for his opponent. RADA approved martial law for 30 days not the 60 he demanded, he needs to ensure something happens so he can extend the date continuously.

Losing means he will be investigated and likely be going to jail and his empire broken up.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 11:45
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Originally Posted by racedo View Post
If Northern Ireland sought to join Republic of Ireland then you are saying it is NOT self determination because they didn't want to exist as a separate state ?

If another referendum under full United Nations occurred would you then agree with the result.
If the Republic of Ireland invaded Northern Ireland, capturing the port of Belfast and Aldergrove airport, with troops and armour that that had removed all insignia, whilst claiming they were nothing to do with their armed forces, defying the UN and then holding a 'free' referendum the following month in the occupied territory - then no, it would not be an act of self-determination. Indeed I would expect sanctions from the UN and other international communities - sound familiar?

If the Republic of Ireland then became embroiled in a conflict in west Wales, including shooting down an airliner over Shropshire I think we would have further reason for concern. Of course, if the Republic of Ireland had also invaded somewhere like Denmark (Georgia), used radioactive material and chemical weapons to kill people in sovereign states then I think we would treat Ireland with the same level of disgust as we currently reserve for Russia.

Of course, Ireland is a decent and functioning liberal democracy; far removed from the intolerable regime you support.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 15:35
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Personal insult means lack of arguments :-)

BTW, there is the city of Sebastopol, the main Soviet and then Russia navy base in that area. It was not part of the Khruschev's gift to his Ukrainian commy lads in 1954 and remained the city of so called "central sub-ordination" ("reported" directly to Moscow). After 1991, according to the agreement between Russia and Ukraine the Russian fleet remained there and also totally 20K of the Russian military personnel was allowed to stay there in Crimea (in reality there were 18K).
Thus, there was no need to "invade".
As for the Ukrainian military forces in Crimea, there were also about 20K in total. After the referendum in 2014 (where 97% voted to leave Ukraine, turnout of voters was some 83%) about 6K+ of them were happy to join Russian forces, the same amount simply said "farewell to arms" and remaining 6K+ preferred to relocate to the continental part of Ukraine.
Thus, there was no need to invade or annex. Simply, absolute majority of the population gladly changed the citizenship.
As correctly mentioned above by Racedo, if anybody is OK with Northern Ireland as part of the UK, then Crimea integration with Russia is much more justifiable. No shooting, no blood, no IRA, etc.

As for the title of the thread, Russia is indeed strengthening its forces there, but not significantly. Adding one more battery of S-400 (to 3 already deployed) is not a big deal.
Better pay attention to Ukraine seriously concentrating their forces in the S-E Ukraine. Pres. Poroshenko arranged a provocation near the Crimean bridge to impose the martial law and extend his time in the pres, chair (elections are scheduled for March '19). But his internal rivals did not allow him to extend it for more than 30 days, thus a new, larger, provocation is needed before these 30 days expire. The most probable scenario is to start a serious offensive in the Donbass area controlled by separatists and blame Russia (as usual). We will see soon....

Last edited by A_Van; 11th Dec 2018 at 15:46.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 15:38
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Sounds like RT news.
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Old 11th Dec 2018, 15:49
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Expected to have been banned by now.

No A_Van, it just means you can't reason/argue with stupid.
RT News, Pravda, what's the difference?
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