Royal Navy F-35B compared with anything
Reading all this stuff and watching the vidoes reinforces my perception that the RN was right to bin me from flying training at an early stage back in the 60s. I am 100% not wired this way, and have an inevitably grudging respect for those who are. However, becoming a sh1t-hot, can-do, Mil ATCO was a reasonable substitute ... especially when the chips were down for you guys up there.
Anyone up for a mutual respect group hug? Naah ... what pilot would hug an ATCO in public, unless it was female?
Anyone up for a mutual respect group hug? Naah ... what pilot would hug an ATCO in public, unless it was female?
Not usually one for the man-hugs but there was a time in the late 80's that I had a SHAR engine quit at FL400 during an air-test over Cornwall. Rapid decompression followed by Christmas tree of warnings, HUD and radar out, huuuuge noise from intakes spilling air around the cockpit and much flatulence! My very high-pitched Mayday call was answered by a calm, almost nonchalant controller at London Mil "Yeovil XX, Mayday acknowledged, St Mawgan is 180/20 miles and it will relight about FL230".
"How the hell do you know that" quoth I.
"Don't worry" was the reply, "I've had loads of these!"
Sure enough, he was right and I made it home for my first date with the future Mrs Mog. That would have justified a hug!!
Mog
Salute!
No, PN, we had no extinuisher (sp?). My flight lead told me the motor was smoking and suggested I shut it down. Being a nugget, and smelling the fuel, I obeyed. Had made another pass after fuel warning light was blinking and fumes were bad, The grunts needed CBU and I made last pass before telling lead I had a problem.
Ran outta gas in 20 miles and deadsticked into Saigon international airport.
Gums sends...
No, PN, we had no extinuisher (sp?). My flight lead told me the motor was smoking and suggested I shut it down. Being a nugget, and smelling the fuel, I obeyed. Had made another pass after fuel warning light was blinking and fumes were bad, The grunts needed CBU and I made last pass before telling lead I had a problem.
Ran outta gas in 20 miles and deadsticked into Saigon international airport.
Gums sends...
Salute!
No, PN, we had no extinuisher (sp?). My flight lead told me the motor was smoking and suggested I shut it down. Being a nugget, and smelling the fuel, I obeyed. Had made another pass after fuel warning light was blinking and fumes were bad, The grunts needed CBU and I made last pass before telling lead I had a problem.
Ran outta gas in 20 miles and deadsticked into Saigon international airport.
Gums sends...
No, PN, we had no extinuisher (sp?). My flight lead told me the motor was smoking and suggested I shut it down. Being a nugget, and smelling the fuel, I obeyed. Had made another pass after fuel warning light was blinking and fumes were bad, The grunts needed CBU and I made last pass before telling lead I had a problem.
Ran outta gas in 20 miles and deadsticked into Saigon international airport.
Gums sends...
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Mogwi ... Love it!!
Yeah, we did tend to see a lot of 'stuff' and learned quite a bit about whet happened 'up there'.
Yeah, we did tend to see a lot of 'stuff' and learned quite a bit about whet happened 'up there'.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Gums, same as the 'tomb then. I can still remember the fire drill after 50 years.
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MPN11 -
If its any consolation, I was 'shown the door' at an even earlier stage; passed both RAF and RN pilot selection and did not start training for either. That story I think I alluded to in one of my few threads.
Spent about 15 years on combat aircraft projects with defence companies. The systems I find fascinating especially the weapons systems. They are incredibly complex machines and a real marvel at the colossal effort needed to do this safely and reliably.
Spent a good chunk of time on the Typhoon. The amount of data flowing through its 'veins' every second is phenomenal. A lecture given by a test pilot during development highlighted that in a certain part of the flight envelope, if the FCS lost control then the unstable Typhoon would rip itself apart in under 1.5 seconds; faster than the pilot could safely eject back then.
One other thing that sticks in my mind is the first tests of the canopy jettison. They had a full size cockpit and canopy setup with a pilot manikin sat in it. They did their calcs and estimated the canopy would fly backwards at a max height of 'H'. They erected a net to some height exceeding 'H' by a good margin, to ensure the jettisoned canopy didn't fly over the net and into the river sands behind. They rigged it all up, hit the big red button, the canopy explosive jettison charges fired and blew the canopy clean over the net! When they inspected the cockpit they found the pilot manikin intact except for its arms that had been burnt off. They pack a bit less gunpowder in there nowadays. Shows the value of testing though; even today computers can only do so much. Been out of that world for a long time now. Very hard work, lots of 6-7 day weeks, shifts, late hours and taking work home but very rewarding and interesting. Learned a lot there and met some excellent people; people really are the key.
Had a quick look at AAA. Some deadly systems out there. Didn't see many prices except for a 2009 estimate of $10+million for Type 87 Twin 35mm Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery System (has a range of 4km and a radar).
https://www.forecastinternational.co...DACH_RECNO=117
As a ballpark figure, that aint that cheap. SPAAGs (Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery Gun) I imagine would be quite vulnerable in the modern battle space although I have read that they are coming back into favour. But with modern sensors and lots of drones to carry them are they not easily spotted? e.g. thermal imaging, etc.
Found some interesting info on AAA in Wiki and a few others. The performance of high powered AAA is impressive. If they can be well 'hidden' in the modern battle space they have a very effective track record. Some of the older AAA are also highly effective to ranges of 8km and beyond.
List of anti-aircraft weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rcraft_weapons
ZSU-57-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-57-2
57mm
Max. range about 7km
Weapon aiming: manual/visual
Platform: self-propelled
Used in several conflicts including Vietnam and the Gulf War 1.
GW-1: Raid on airbase, shot down Tornado GR1 of four aircraft; later same day AAA downed GR1 and damaged three more.
"New Russian-made Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm anti-aircraft artillery system ready for tests in 2017"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._12306161.html
Useful source:
"Weaponsystems.net"
Menu Weaponsystems.net
SPAAGs in action; you really wouldn't want to be in range of these:
"Top 10 BEST Self Propelled Anti Air GUN SPAAG - 2016"
Last edited by Wingless Walrus; 16th Oct 2018 at 00:07.
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I love these tales of 'everyday' emergencies. I will never moan about getting a flat tyre again.
MPN11 -
If its any consolation, I was 'shown the door' at an even earlier stage; passed both RAF and RN pilot selection and did not start training for either. That story I think I alluded to in one of my few threads.
Spent about 15 years on combat aircraft projects with defence companies. The systems I find fascinating especially the weapons systems. They are incredibly complex machines and a real marvel at the colossal effort needed to do this safely and reliably.
Spent a good chunk of time on the Typhoon. The amount of data flowing through its 'veins' every second is phenomenal. A lecture given by a test pilot during development highlighted that in a certain part of the flight envelope, if the FCS lost control then the unstable Typhoon would rip itself apart in under 1.5 seconds; faster than the pilot could safely eject back then.
One other thing that sticks in my mind is the first tests of the canopy jettison. They had a full size cockpit and canopy setup with a pilot manikin sat in it. They did their calcs and estimated the canopy would fly backwards at a max height of 'H'. They erected a net to some height exceeding 'H' by a good margin, to ensure the jettisoned canopy didn't fly over the net and into the river sands behind. They rigged it all up, hit the big red button, the canopy explosive jettison charges fired and blew the canopy clean over the net! When they inspected the cockpit they found the pilot manikin intact except for its arms that had been burnt off. They pack a bit less gunpowder in there nowadays. Shows the value of testing though; even today computers can only do so much. Been out of that world for a long time now. Very hard work, lots of 6-7 day weeks, shifts, late hours and taking work home but very rewarding and interesting. Learned a lot there and met some excellent people; people really are the key.
Had a quick look at AAA. Some deadly systems out there. Didn't see many prices except for a 2009 estimate of $10+million for Type 87 Twin 35mm Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery System (has a range of 4km and a radar).
https://www.forecastinternational.co...DACH_RECNO=117
As a ballpark figure, that aint that cheap. SPAAGs (Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery Gun) I imagine would be quite vulnerable in the modern battle space although I have read that they are coming back into favour. But with modern sensors and lots of drones to carry them are they not easily spotted? e.g. thermal imaging, etc.
Found some interesting info on AAA in Wiki and a few others. The performance of high powered AAA is impressive. If they can be well 'hidden' in the modern battle space they have a very effective track record. Some of the older AAA are also highly effective to ranges of 8km and beyond.
List of anti-aircraft weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rcraft_weapons
ZSU-57-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-57-2
57mm
Max. range about 7km
Weapon aiming: manual/visual
Platform: self-propelled
Used in several conflicts including Vietnam and the Gulf War 1.
GW-1: Raid on airbase, shot down Tornado GR1 of four aircraft; later same day AAA downed GR1 and damaged three more.
"New Russian-made Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm anti-aircraft artillery system ready for tests in 2017"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._12306161.html
Useful source:
"Weaponsystems.net"
Menu Weaponsystems.net
SPAAGs in action; you really wouldn't want to be in range of these:
"Top 10 BEST Self Propelled Anti Air GUN SPAAG - 2016"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kejXE7u2RDo
MPN11 -
If its any consolation, I was 'shown the door' at an even earlier stage; passed both RAF and RN pilot selection and did not start training for either. That story I think I alluded to in one of my few threads.
Spent about 15 years on combat aircraft projects with defence companies. The systems I find fascinating especially the weapons systems. They are incredibly complex machines and a real marvel at the colossal effort needed to do this safely and reliably.
Spent a good chunk of time on the Typhoon. The amount of data flowing through its 'veins' every second is phenomenal. A lecture given by a test pilot during development highlighted that in a certain part of the flight envelope, if the FCS lost control then the unstable Typhoon would rip itself apart in under 1.5 seconds; faster than the pilot could safely eject back then.
One other thing that sticks in my mind is the first tests of the canopy jettison. They had a full size cockpit and canopy setup with a pilot manikin sat in it. They did their calcs and estimated the canopy would fly backwards at a max height of 'H'. They erected a net to some height exceeding 'H' by a good margin, to ensure the jettisoned canopy didn't fly over the net and into the river sands behind. They rigged it all up, hit the big red button, the canopy explosive jettison charges fired and blew the canopy clean over the net! When they inspected the cockpit they found the pilot manikin intact except for its arms that had been burnt off. They pack a bit less gunpowder in there nowadays. Shows the value of testing though; even today computers can only do so much. Been out of that world for a long time now. Very hard work, lots of 6-7 day weeks, shifts, late hours and taking work home but very rewarding and interesting. Learned a lot there and met some excellent people; people really are the key.
Had a quick look at AAA. Some deadly systems out there. Didn't see many prices except for a 2009 estimate of $10+million for Type 87 Twin 35mm Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery System (has a range of 4km and a radar).
https://www.forecastinternational.co...DACH_RECNO=117
As a ballpark figure, that aint that cheap. SPAAGs (Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Artillery Gun) I imagine would be quite vulnerable in the modern battle space although I have read that they are coming back into favour. But with modern sensors and lots of drones to carry them are they not easily spotted? e.g. thermal imaging, etc.
Found some interesting info on AAA in Wiki and a few others. The performance of high powered AAA is impressive. If they can be well 'hidden' in the modern battle space they have a very effective track record. Some of the older AAA are also highly effective to ranges of 8km and beyond.
List of anti-aircraft weapons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rcraft_weapons
ZSU-57-2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZSU-57-2
57mm
Max. range about 7km
Weapon aiming: manual/visual
Platform: self-propelled
Used in several conflicts including Vietnam and the Gulf War 1.
GW-1: Raid on airbase, shot down Tornado GR1 of four aircraft; later same day AAA downed GR1 and damaged three more.
"New Russian-made Derivatsiya-PVO 57mm anti-aircraft artillery system ready for tests in 2017"
https://www.armyrecognition.com/weap..._12306161.html
Useful source:
"Weaponsystems.net"
Menu Weaponsystems.net
SPAAGs in action; you really wouldn't want to be in range of these:
"Top 10 BEST Self Propelled Anti Air GUN SPAAG - 2016"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kejXE7u2RDo
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The problem with self propelled guns is the unit cost versus the cost of their targets.
If guns be cheaper than the aircraft and their missiles you can afford more guns. Stumbling across a ZSU23-4 could spoil your whole day. The counter of course is to fly above the GEZ which of course puts you into the MEZ.
If guns be cheaper than the aircraft and their missiles you can afford more guns. Stumbling across a ZSU23-4 could spoil your whole day. The counter of course is to fly above the GEZ which of course puts you into the MEZ.
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There are other counters PN (I know - you know, I get it!). Stay behind hill, jam the radar, exceed the crossing rate, fly lower than min engagement height, fly below...or just kill them!
Not for the faint of heart but doable.
Not for the faint of heart but doable.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
orca, your last, my first, if they have more tubes than you have assets they win. Of course it is not 1-1+ as the gun/missile PK is probably If i 0.1-0.25 hence the old adage the bomber (at least one) will always get through.
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Interesting points. Of course, the replacement/redeployment equations tend to skew the comparison a bit. 
The Sovs churned out T-34s at a staggering rate. Hiw long to replace an F-35?
The Sovs churned out T-34s at a staggering rate. Hiw long to replace an F-35?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MPN, it is not just the prime system, look at Bloodhound, we now discover 2 shots per launcher.
Drop tanks, how many could we afford to drop before the whole mission plan has to be recast?
I think GW1 ate up all the war stock JP233.
It must make the beanies weep when all the Fireflash, Firesteak, Red Top, 9D, AIM7 etc are all junked. "But you didn't need them, do you can only have one set each"
Drop tanks, how many could we afford to drop before the whole mission plan has to be recast?
I think GW1 ate up all the war stock JP233.
It must make the beanies weep when all the Fireflash, Firesteak, Red Top, 9D, AIM7 etc are all junked. "But you didn't need them, do you can only have one set each"
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Drop tanks is a good question. We had a hangar full of them at Watton, LK for the use of. Mate and I assisted in their maintenace program by going in and shooting wood pigeons one day, as they were crapping on the kit!
Of course GW1 JP233 war stock was what it was for. Going Medium Level resolved that problem, leading to the 1,000 lb problem which the brave Belgians didn’t help with. ISTR they didn’t even have their declared NATO war stocks.
Of course GW1 JP233 war stock was what it was for. Going Medium Level resolved that problem, leading to the 1,000 lb problem which the brave Belgians didn’t help with. ISTR they didn’t even have their declared NATO war stocks.
Salute!
Tanks and guns
The old drop tanks have gone and they did so for USAF and USN and USMC back in the 1960's. Only time we saw "drop" tanks actually drop was up near Hanoi, and one day a flight leader calmlyj broadcast of the strike frew, "watch out for falling tanks". Seems a mig had smoked an F-4 and all were on alert. They normally did not mix it up when we were within 10 or 15 miles of Downtown due to the Sams and AAA. Problem ain't cheap "paper" tanks like they used in WW2 and Korea. It's that they take up a store station, and we had perfected the refueling during the late 50's. So the tanks we wound up with were sturdy and expensive. Oh well.
Our sole remaining A-37 squad got to see the ZSU23-4 at An Loc in 1972 during the "Spring Invasion" or whtever they called it. It was the last dedicated USAF CAS outfit and was only 40 miles away. We lost more planes there in a few weeks than any other battle that the plane was in-country ( 1967 - 1972). USMC A-4's were last mudbeaters in-country and eparted days after our A-37 squad in October.
The tactic to beat the ZSU if there were only a couple was to have two or more planes in a circle and hit the thing when he was firing at one of your buddies!!! Brutal, but it worked. Our little jet was hard to hit and had the lowest loss rate of anything during the war - -- 23 or so outta 75,000 sorties and 13 or 14 fatal ( 4 of those the first year). No SA-7 losses, as a hard turn would beat it if your buddy called the launch. We didn't have flares.
The biggie about dueling with guns is they have relatively simple aiming solutions because attacking planes are coming right at them. This is for basic gravity bombs, or strafe or rockets and such. The missiles are a different matter, as we found out in the Falklands and one U.S. loss in the Gulf.
Gums sends...
Tanks and guns
The old drop tanks have gone and they did so for USAF and USN and USMC back in the 1960's. Only time we saw "drop" tanks actually drop was up near Hanoi, and one day a flight leader calmlyj broadcast of the strike frew, "watch out for falling tanks". Seems a mig had smoked an F-4 and all were on alert. They normally did not mix it up when we were within 10 or 15 miles of Downtown due to the Sams and AAA. Problem ain't cheap "paper" tanks like they used in WW2 and Korea. It's that they take up a store station, and we had perfected the refueling during the late 50's. So the tanks we wound up with were sturdy and expensive. Oh well.
Our sole remaining A-37 squad got to see the ZSU23-4 at An Loc in 1972 during the "Spring Invasion" or whtever they called it. It was the last dedicated USAF CAS outfit and was only 40 miles away. We lost more planes there in a few weeks than any other battle that the plane was in-country ( 1967 - 1972). USMC A-4's were last mudbeaters in-country and eparted days after our A-37 squad in October.
The tactic to beat the ZSU if there were only a couple was to have two or more planes in a circle and hit the thing when he was firing at one of your buddies!!! Brutal, but it worked. Our little jet was hard to hit and had the lowest loss rate of anything during the war - -- 23 or so outta 75,000 sorties and 13 or 14 fatal ( 4 of those the first year). No SA-7 losses, as a hard turn would beat it if your buddy called the launch. We didn't have flares.
The biggie about dueling with guns is they have relatively simple aiming solutions because attacking planes are coming right at them. This is for basic gravity bombs, or strafe or rockets and such. The missiles are a different matter, as we found out in the Falklands and one U.S. loss in the Gulf.
Gums sends...
