Initials - Unfinished Business
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Initials - Unfinished Business
For some reason the thread discussing RAF Fast Jet Initials has been locked?
Apart from a few QFIs having a go at each other there were some interesting ideas. I was taught by a Hunter pilot 45 years ago and then flew fast jets for 40 years.
Yes, we can discuss 30 seconds, 3 miles, 4 miles, a significant feature - who cares so long as we all conform to the FOB. The VRIAB is a means of safely(hopefully) bringing up to a 4 ship (or more than one) into the circuit. There is a STANAG which the RAF chose to use only as rough guidance as "we know better" than the rest of NATO. AP3456 gives most of the basics for what we use and why but is written by QFIs!
The one important fact that has not been discussed is height. If Initials is at 3-4 miles at 1000ft, what else is there - radar traffic! If the break height is at 1000ft what else is there - circuit traffic. I never understood the American Initials and Break Hieght at 1500ft until I did a tour there. Very busy circuits and Blue weather in the High Desert, it worked OK.
Back in Europe on a typical Green day 1500ft does not work. In my opinion Initials and the Break Height should be below GCA and Circuit traffic. 500ft seemed to work for most. Yes OC Ops got the odd noise complaints but that was his job to explain!
There was mention of the 4 ship Drag for Straight In Approaches. Yes it works OK for one 4 ship but not for many. It is not as expeditious as a VRIAB and it also conflicts with the Radar Pattern.
Apart from a few QFIs having a go at each other there were some interesting ideas. I was taught by a Hunter pilot 45 years ago and then flew fast jets for 40 years.
Yes, we can discuss 30 seconds, 3 miles, 4 miles, a significant feature - who cares so long as we all conform to the FOB. The VRIAB is a means of safely(hopefully) bringing up to a 4 ship (or more than one) into the circuit. There is a STANAG which the RAF chose to use only as rough guidance as "we know better" than the rest of NATO. AP3456 gives most of the basics for what we use and why but is written by QFIs!
The one important fact that has not been discussed is height. If Initials is at 3-4 miles at 1000ft, what else is there - radar traffic! If the break height is at 1000ft what else is there - circuit traffic. I never understood the American Initials and Break Hieght at 1500ft until I did a tour there. Very busy circuits and Blue weather in the High Desert, it worked OK.
Back in Europe on a typical Green day 1500ft does not work. In my opinion Initials and the Break Height should be below GCA and Circuit traffic. 500ft seemed to work for most. Yes OC Ops got the odd noise complaints but that was his job to explain!
There was mention of the 4 ship Drag for Straight In Approaches. Yes it works OK for one 4 ship but not for many. It is not as expeditious as a VRIAB and it also conflicts with the Radar Pattern.
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Avoiding GCA traffic is an issue, as the GCA traffic will be typically between 1500 and 0 ft 
My abiding memory is the recovery of 32+2 RAAF Mirages to rw 36 at Tengah after a flypast at KL. Sections of 4 spaced themselves at 5 miles using their AI radar as they approached the IP. After the break, they were a tidy 1 mile trail downwind. All 34 thus recovered in one continuous stream, leaving the Local Controller (me) saying little more than "Land in turn" ... with the occasional "6 ahead, 5 on" in the rare moments when I could do a head-count. 
Plenty of clear IPs to the N and S, of course.
Yes it works OK for one 4 ship but not for many.
Plenty of clear IPs to the N and S, of course.
MPN11 were you at Tengah then when the Americans flew in landing in stream and proceeded to scatter their aircraft off the end, to the left and to the right of the far end of the runway and had to tow them all the way back to 60 dispersal past the crowd now gathered on the balconies of Learoyd block, you can imagine the reception they got.
VRIAB vs Straight-in.
The VRIAB allows a jet to stay higher and faster for longer. On a good day you can descend late (1.5 times your height to give you track miles for the descent works in a Hawk) with a low power setting and not touch the throttle again until finals. Weather and other traffic may preclude this of course.
In my experience a properly managed straight-in will be more fuel efficient but a VRIAB will be quicker. Downwind joins can be useful when coming from the ‘upwind’ direction. Again, if flown properly.
VRIABs are usually flown at 500’ to ‘skyline’ circuit traffic. Noise abatement and other reasons may change this. Procedures change sometimes and what was once best practice can change and then change back again.
I don’t know why the previous thread was locked. I don’t think it got nasty. Robust perhaps but not nasty.
As an aside, I retrospectively (and impartially) assessed myself today as we flew a fuel efficient recovery (from 12000’) for a VRIAB. We commenced our descent from about 15-20 miles away having used the kit to give an initial heading. I didn’t look inside the cockpit again until I checked for 3 greens on finals. The rest of the time was spent looking out the window and visually acquiring the airfield and circuit traffic. I also didn’t need to touch the power until he finals turn.
I suspect what I have just described is not too different from the way it has been done for many years.
BV
In my experience a properly managed straight-in will be more fuel efficient but a VRIAB will be quicker. Downwind joins can be useful when coming from the ‘upwind’ direction. Again, if flown properly.
VRIABs are usually flown at 500’ to ‘skyline’ circuit traffic. Noise abatement and other reasons may change this. Procedures change sometimes and what was once best practice can change and then change back again.
I don’t know why the previous thread was locked. I don’t think it got nasty. Robust perhaps but not nasty.
As an aside, I retrospectively (and impartially) assessed myself today as we flew a fuel efficient recovery (from 12000’) for a VRIAB. We commenced our descent from about 15-20 miles away having used the kit to give an initial heading. I didn’t look inside the cockpit again until I checked for 3 greens on finals. The rest of the time was spent looking out the window and visually acquiring the airfield and circuit traffic. I also didn’t need to touch the power until he finals turn.
I suspect what I have just described is not too different from the way it has been done for many years.
BV
Out of interest, Bob, what speed did you use?
I found that a VRIAB at anything over 420KIAS in the Hawk was a bit awkward as it had a much cleaner wing than the Hunter and didn't lose speed as readily. A climbing break from 420KIAS / 500ft at Brawdy was (IIRC) SOP and worked fine in the Hunter - I think we did the same at Chiv?
One QFI did show me a trick way of flying a fast break in the Hawk though. We brought one back from Kemble to Valley and he flew it flat out at max engine limit. A very hard level break at idle thrust, then a climb to downwind and gear / flap at the limiting speeds meant he could just make threshold speed with just a touche of thrust. Untidy and unnecessary, I thought.
Anyway, hands up who doesn't enjoy a decent low level VRIAB! Right, prat at the back - off to navigator school with you!
I found that a VRIAB at anything over 420KIAS in the Hawk was a bit awkward as it had a much cleaner wing than the Hunter and didn't lose speed as readily. A climbing break from 420KIAS / 500ft at Brawdy was (IIRC) SOP and worked fine in the Hunter - I think we did the same at Chiv?
One QFI did show me a trick way of flying a fast break in the Hawk though. We brought one back from Kemble to Valley and he flew it flat out at max engine limit. A very hard level break at idle thrust, then a climb to downwind and gear / flap at the limiting speeds meant he could just make threshold speed with just a touche of thrust. Untidy and unnecessary, I thought.
Anyway, hands up who doesn't enjoy a decent low level VRIAB! Right, prat at the back - off to navigator school with you!
Aircraft joining via initials either from a radar to visual or a visual approach were always told about instrument traffic and vice-versa. My memory is faded now but Initials was not on the centre line as suggested in the other thread but was offset to deadside anyway. When all parties were happy the aircraft chopped to tower for the join and was told number of aircraft in the circuit ie "Join 21RH, QFE xxxx, 3 in. At initials the controller gave the position of the circuit traffic in the order that the joining traffic would, or was likely to, encounter them. ie One finals, one crosswind, one late downwind. After that it was up to the pilots to sort out their spacing.
The above only works when correct info is passed. I only saw it fail once and that was at Boscombe Down probably back in the early 90's. (No deadside) with a Bulldog supposedly at initials (his call) and J**n T****e in the Hunter also joining via initials. Radio calls had JT ahead of the bulldog but he wasn't. The bulldog had missed his initials call point and called it more or less as he crossed the airfield boundary but only after JT's call prompted him. Luckily other procedures prevented a collision (bulldog join was 800' and jets was 1000' if memory serves me correctly) but it was close and an Airprox was filed.
MPN11
The 34-ship recovery sounded a challenge as you would not have had the benefit of pre-briefing the recovery. We did a 16-ship of Jags back at Colt after some celebration or other. At briefing we said the runway would be sterile from them calling tower and that the only major call they would get was when lead called finals "geardown", the reply would be "formation callsign, with your gear down and checked, cleared to land in turn", all aircraft called finals gear down but no response was given by ATC as we had briefed this. They knew how many were ahead, they could see how many were on the runway so why tie up the frequency. It worked a treat, was safe, and was expeditious. All I had to do was move the pins around on my board in local. :-)
The above only works when correct info is passed. I only saw it fail once and that was at Boscombe Down probably back in the early 90's. (No deadside) with a Bulldog supposedly at initials (his call) and J**n T****e in the Hunter also joining via initials. Radio calls had JT ahead of the bulldog but he wasn't. The bulldog had missed his initials call point and called it more or less as he crossed the airfield boundary but only after JT's call prompted him. Luckily other procedures prevented a collision (bulldog join was 800' and jets was 1000' if memory serves me correctly) but it was close and an Airprox was filed.
MPN11
The 34-ship recovery sounded a challenge as you would not have had the benefit of pre-briefing the recovery. We did a 16-ship of Jags back at Colt after some celebration or other. At briefing we said the runway would be sterile from them calling tower and that the only major call they would get was when lead called finals "geardown", the reply would be "formation callsign, with your gear down and checked, cleared to land in turn", all aircraft called finals gear down but no response was given by ATC as we had briefed this. They knew how many were ahead, they could see how many were on the runway so why tie up the frequency. It worked a treat, was safe, and was expeditious. All I had to do was move the pins around on my board in local. :-)
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cliver029 ... no, must have been before my time (67-70). Good work to run out of runway with 9,000 ft available!
SWB ... Pre-brief? All I had was a board full of 'airborne' pins, and nobody bothered to mention they were all coming back together until Approach got them at "Point Bravo" [15 nm SW] running in and spacing themselves at 5 miles trail, nor tell us how they were doing the mass recovery! It was a stimulating few minutes (10 or so?).
SWB ... Pre-brief? All I had was a board full of 'airborne' pins, and nobody bothered to mention they were all coming back together until Approach got them at "Point Bravo" [15 nm SW] running in and spacing themselves at 5 miles trail, nor tell us how they were doing the mass recovery! It was a stimulating few minutes (10 or so?).
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Although not Fast Jet, flying the Dominie at Cranwell was great fun and slightly challenging. Doing a VRIAB at 220kts/500ft into a circuit of Jetstream/King Airs and Tutors required good judgement. With a downwind speed of 180kts decreasing to 120kts gave plenty of overtake on Slow Movers. At Cranwell the landing order was decided by the order that ac called "Finals", normally this is by the "Downwind" call. This meant that it was perfectly acceptable to overtake other ac downwind. With the Jetstream/King Airs at 1000ft and the Tutors at 800ft it was normally best for the Dominies to level break and remain at 500ft. By doing this we were less likely to distract student pilots or QFIs. Trying to achieve a formation break was nearly impossible on many occassions.
The only close call I had was as aproaching the airfield boundary with a pair a Tutor on short finals was Sent Round. The Tutor pilot climbed and turned 30deg right onto Deadside, right in front of us. For some reason some Tutor pilots thought that Deadside was 400 meters North of the runway?
The only close call I had was as aproaching the airfield boundary with a pair a Tutor on short finals was Sent Round. The Tutor pilot climbed and turned 30deg right onto Deadside, right in front of us. For some reason some Tutor pilots thought that Deadside was 400 meters North of the runway?
Last edited by Dominator2; 14th Aug 2018 at 13:07. Reason: sp
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VRIAB or battle break. Both get my vote.
SOP speed for the Hawk is 360 knots at 500’ (runway dependent). It has not been unknown to fly it faster but, yes, a clean Hawk is a slippery beast. Lots of buffet helps to slow you down but is frowned upon. Makes a great noise though.
BV
SOP speed for the Hawk is 360 knots at 500’ (runway dependent). It has not been unknown to fly it faster but, yes, a clean Hawk is a slippery beast. Lots of buffet helps to slow you down but is frowned upon. Makes a great noise though.
BV
All the talk of slippy Hawks and 360kt breaks got me thinking of the 520kt break I did once in a Tornado, at the threshold and turning final in the correct place to boot. Max wingsweep, airbrakes, max AoA, draggy stores, and lots of flap when the wings did eventually come forward... shedding speed is something it definitely excelled at, and I bet plenty have done faster!
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Whilst on Exchange with the USAF flying the F4 we always came to Initials at a sedate 320kts. The break consisted of 80% aside and a 4g turn to downwind.
Once a year we went to MCAS Yuma as Red Air. At Yuma you could get away with almost anything. I observed the Navy Reserve F4Ns clearly above 500kts on the break.
One day I led back a 4 ship and decided to be a little faster than normal. I had wrongly assumed that these Combat Ready IPs would be able to manage.
Into the break at 540kts. Idle/Idle, Airbreak, 5+g and roll out downwind with speed 260kts and decreasing. Only then to be overtaken by my No2, then No3 and then No4.
We turned finals in the correct order and sorted it out from there.
Assumed knowledge can be dangerous!
Once a year we went to MCAS Yuma as Red Air. At Yuma you could get away with almost anything. I observed the Navy Reserve F4Ns clearly above 500kts on the break.
One day I led back a 4 ship and decided to be a little faster than normal. I had wrongly assumed that these Combat Ready IPs would be able to manage.
Into the break at 540kts. Idle/Idle, Airbreak, 5+g and roll out downwind with speed 260kts and decreasing. Only then to be overtaken by my No2, then No3 and then No4.
We turned finals in the correct order and sorted it out from there.
Assumed knowledge can be dangerous!
Flown a variety of fast jets in several different Air Forces. When all is said and done, the VRIAB is part of a visual recovery procedure and that must be taken into account when discussions are made about exactly where the 'initial point' is. I am biased, but I believe we do know 'better than NATO' because in every other Air Force I have had the privilege of flying in, large formation visual recoveries end up being a rolling goat. In the RAF this is made to feel like a normal everyday occurrence even when it isn't. The majority (not all!) of NATO countries prefer a procedural recovery, usually under IFR. It works for them, what the RAF do works in their specific circumstances.
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Dominator2 ... you have triggered a Local Controller’s memory-cell!!
Javelin 4-ship at Tengah, running in in echelon.
Lead calls ... “Break, Break ... Go ... Now”.
Much wobbling, but they got it sorted eventually.
Javelin 4-ship at Tengah, running in in echelon.
Lead calls ... “Break, Break ... Go ... Now”.
Much wobbling, but they got it sorted eventually.
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ExAscoteer,
Yes I recall those 250kt breaks in the Dominie. For those who tried them they usually ended up with an overstress or a circuit going out to the Holdingham roundabout.
Not exceeding the RTS and "looking good around the pattern" are all important aspects to doing a good VRIAB!!
Yes I recall those 250kt breaks in the Dominie. For those who tried them they usually ended up with an overstress or a circuit going out to the Holdingham roundabout.
Not exceeding the RTS and "looking good around the pattern" are all important aspects to doing a good VRIAB!!
I made my pilot quite excited on one occasion when I definitely wasn't doing a run in and break in a bulldog...what I thought was sufficient pitch apparently wasn't...
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I never overstressed a Dom in over 1000hrs of flying them, and never had to throw a Break away.