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Military legal advice.

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Military legal advice.

Old 28th Jul 2018, 16:35
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Military legal advice.

Yet another det somewhere in the Med and someone has effed up. Our lords and masters deem that it is good leadership to therefore confine the whole det to camp. The individuals who have contravened orders are on a different fleet and are totally unknown to me and my colleagues. Is it therefore legal to confine us all to camp?
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 16:47
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Yes. There are several reasons one of which is to protect you from revenge by the locals. Similar restrictions have been in place in Cyprus on numerous occasions.

It may seem unfair but there are probably sound diplomatic reasons as well.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 17:25
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I may be wrong, but during my 38 years in the RAF I was confined on 3 separate occasions for stuff that had nothing to do with me. If the order is given I don't see that there is much that you can do.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 18:05
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Since you mention a ‘different fleet’ within one det, you must be on operations on a camp that has within its perimeter a beach club, karting track, cinema, several bars, shops, food outlets, coffee shops, clifftop running routes etc.

Confined to camp for a bit while on an operational detachment? Get over yourself.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 18:55
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I may be wrong, in which I case I apologise, but I scent a truckie......
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 19:29
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I was banned from the Mess, except for meals. Was that cruel and unusual, or what?
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 19:40
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Originally Posted by Taxi.Idge View Post
... Is it therefore legal to confine us all to camp?
Good question. It is a bit vague " ...and will observe and Obey all orders of Her Majesty, her Heirs and Successors , and of the Air Officers and other Officers set over me,"
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 20:38
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Originally Posted by Taxi.Idge View Post
Yet another det somewhere in the Med and someone has effed up. Our lords and masters deem that it is good leadership to therefore confine the whole det to camp. The individuals who have contravened orders are on a different fleet and are totally unknown to me and my colleagues. Is it therefore legal to confine us all to camp?
Another example of someone serving who thinks that they are serving in the military...but only when it suits them.

Get over it...and yes they can do it...or leave.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 21:19
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. I may be wrong, in which I case I apologise, but I scent a truckie......
ORAC: you may be guilty of an ‘ism’ with your blatant bias against an individual solely on your perception that they might be a member of a diverse group of people who are only connected by the type of aircraft they operate. Shame on you!
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 22:10
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You’re on Ops why would feel the need to be out socialising? If it’s that much of an issue though I guess you could always just ignore orders. Which as long as they are legal, are lawful. At least the last time I checked my Commissioning Scroll.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 22:22
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Taxi.ldge may not have a commissioning scroll.

I seem to remember, not that long a go, that Det personnel at an RAF base in the Med were not permitted off base whereas permanent staff were.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 22:22
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We've all been there....

3 sides to this, the protection of the people (fighting with locals) and also the punishment factor for "messing up". Usually alcohol fueled in some form too. Serves a reminder to everyone to behave.

the 3rd side is the locals, whilst everyone is confined to camp, local trade goes (and profit) goes down....

lose/lose scenario.

I suspect this post was just a initial vent.
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Old 28th Jul 2018, 23:33
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I have been in a similar situation recently in what I guess is the same area of the Med. The restrictions in place were a ‘two can rule’ and confinement to camp. Both of these restrictions only applied to those deployed on Operations; neither applied to those who were there on an overseas posting.

Firstly, if the result of the restriction is a direct result of someone else’s misdoings/actions, then this can be seen as a group/collective punishment. In this scenario, I would quite happily ‘press to test’ and I would quite happily ignore any restrictions.

If the restrictions were applied to all members of the armed forces in the local vicinity, as a direct result of perceived repercussions to an incident e.g. threats made by the local populous towards member of the armed forces, then this probably would be seen as a reasonable and proportional restriction and one that should be obeyed.

To those claiming that all orders should be followed…. Rubbish. An order needs to be proportional and legal.

I have always found it ridiculous, as member of the military who has never been in trouble, sober or otherwise, to be told how to conduct myself in time outside of work as result of someone else’s cockup. As an adult, with a wife, children, and a mortgage, I am more than capable of deciding where I go and what I drink (whilst complying with the laws governing alcohol and aviation). During my time at the same place, I would quite happily and openly drink an amount of alcohol THAT I deemed reasonable. Despite at times it being more than the ‘2 cans’, I never once found myself fighting or drink driving. Nor as a result did I have ever have other people punished as a result of my actions.

In short, if you are being confined to camp as result of someone elses actions, then you would be in contravention of a 'standing order'; The fact that this standing order is unreasonable, I would quite happily disregard.
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 01:04
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If the detention is imposed as a collective punishment, it violates laws against detention without a fair trial. However, it may well be an administrative decision made for the protection of both locals and those on detachment.

Have fun trying to prove that it was one or the other.
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 03:26
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Embrace the suck!!!
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 07:40
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The unit commander can of course close camp as he sees fit...
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 08:27
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Originally Posted by TBM-Legend View Post
The unit commander can of course close camp as he sees fit...
I have never understood why we don't just extended miscreants in tour for their OOA by a suitable amount or just done what you the civvies.would do. You know, sling you out on your @rse for not meeting a reputational standard.

Why we need to act like we are managing school children, I've never figured out.
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 10:04
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
I have never understood why we don't just extended miscreants in tour for their OOA by a suitable amount or just done what you the civvies.would do. You know, sling you out on your @rse for not meeting a reputational standard.

Why we need to act like we are managing school children, I've never figured out.
Because some people behave like school children?
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 10:24
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I seem to recall when I was in that group punishment was unlawful under QRs??? I certainly vetoed a group action once as a Sqn Ldr (and on a det as well). That said it would depend on the circumstances and scenarios as to whether a decision could be an operational one, or some sort of punitive "sheep dip" action.

I don't any of any truck with the "because I say so and I have rank" school of leadership, although I saw plenty of it. Effective leadership in the military should be more intelligent and capable than that and thankfully often is (was).

FWIW...I can remember the exact moment I thought, "this is no longer for me"... and subsequently pulled the PVR handle.

I was sitting on the steps to my portacabin in a hot sandy place watching the sunset and wondering why I could not sip a glass red wine in peace and tranquility, but I could trudge over to a bar built out of containers and get a shed on - on tinned beer - surrounded by dozens of sweaty pissed up airmen (and women) of all ranks and "demeanours".

"What am I...a fkn school kid", was my exact thought.
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Old 29th Jul 2018, 10:59
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Originally Posted by VinRouge View Post
I have never understood why we don't just extended miscreants in tour for their OOA by a suitable amount or just done what you the civvies.would do. You know, sling you out on your @rse for not meeting a reputational standard.
'Cos an officer corps is deemed a necessity maybe?

CG
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