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Tornado stick top info

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Tornado stick top info

Old 29th Apr 2018, 07:43
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
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There is some mention of ZA369 in Peter Foster's "Tornado A History" (ISBN 978-0-7524-4514-4), Tempus Publishing Ltd (wx3 thehistorypress dot co dot uk) , focussing on the reconnaissance role. Originally assigned to TWCU at Honington she underwent GR1A upgrade in 87 but then went to TTTE in 87 then onto 20 Sqn in 88 finally to II(AC) Sqn in 89. Entered GR4 update programme in 96 then onto XIII Sqn as GR4A in 98 and then bounced between 12 and 14 Sqn. Foster states she was a "long-serving campaigner of the first Gulf War", assigned to II(AC) Sqn for the period but it does not state where she flew.

I flew her in Jun & Aug 2001 on XIII Sqn at RAF Marham, and again in Sep 02 and in Nov 02. Next flew her in May 04 on a failed Air Test.

Jayviator, I have taken some photos of the relevant pages from Fosters book. If you PM me your email address, I'll forward them to you.

HTH
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 08:45
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the early GR1A’s were converted from existing GR1’s which involved removing both guns and installing the TIRRS infra red video system and a SLIR which I believe was an upgraded version from the Chieftain main battle tank. The GR1A apart from not having any guns was fully capable of carrying conventional & nuclear weapons. The stick was exactly the same as the GR1 but with the event button ‘wired in’. The Nav/back seater also had a weapon release button too. I flew ZA369 at TTTE as they were released to various units prior to the formation of II(AC)Sqn. If I remember rightly ZA404 was present at TWCU about the same time.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 09:47
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jayviator View Post
I see that the cannons were removed on the recce version so did the trigger on the stick have another purpose or was it simply redundant, I also read that the recce variants were still able to carry and drop weapons so there is still a small chance that red button on my stick might have been used in anger,
Quite a large chance that the pickle button was used in anger as the original converted GR1A recce jets tended to have most of the war-going mods so were frequently drawn to support operations which then triggered additional mods. Back then the guns were hardly used so their absence was not a big deal. The as-built batch 7 GR1A recce jets had less toys but were amongst the youngest in the fleet so went on to form a good part of the GR4 fleet.

The trigger was still utilised on the GR1A for Sidewinders and, for a period, ALARM missiles. Part of the haze above is not just because of our failing memory but due to the functions changing throughout aircraft life. Some were just bad design - the basic autopilot mode being a classic - a simple stick button that held the current attitude; in the days before the ‘head-up’ panel and warning bongs this innocuous button that lead to many pilot-induced-oscillations and wtf moments.

The GR1 trainers did have a trigger and rear-seat strafe was a good game with canopy rivet of the day vs bush of the day. As an aside, recce squadrons received the same training allowance of 27mm as regular GR1 squadrons but only had 1 or 2 GR1 trainers on the squadron with guns fitted. The harmonisation on the these jets was outstanding as all the squadron gun use was focused on them. It also meant we had quite a lot of ammo to burn through when we had a rare chance to use the guns. On a regular squadron strafe was usually a short burst from a single gun selected to slow rate. On a recce squadron I found myself with full ammo tanks and both guns at fast rate was the order of the day. It felt rather good, to say the least - brrrrrrrrrrrpppp.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 12:03
  #24 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by just another jocky View Post
There is some mention of ZA369 in Peter Foster's "Tornado A History" (ISBN 978-0-7524-4514-4), Tempus Publishing Ltd (wx3 thehistorypress dot co dot uk) , focussing on the reconnaissance role. Originally assigned to TWCU at Honington she underwent GR1A upgrade in 87 but then went to TTTE in 87 then onto 20 Sqn in 88 finally to II(AC) Sqn in 89. Entered GR4 update programme in 96 then onto XIII Sqn as GR4A in 98 and then bounced between 12 and 14 Sqn. Foster states she was a "long-serving campaigner of the first Gulf War", assigned to II(AC) Sqn for the period but it does not state where she flew.

I flew her in Jun & Aug 2001 on XIII Sqn at RAF Marham, and again in Sep 02 and in Nov 02. Next flew her in May 04 on a failed Air Test.

Jayviator, I have taken some photos of the relevant pages from Fosters book. If you PM me your email address, I'll forward them to you.

HTH
That is excellent info thank you, its pretty cool to speak to someone who flew the exact aircraft my stick was from, I'm guessing its very likely that the stick was in place when you flew her in 2001, maybe it was you who drew that face on the WRB! the form says the year 2002 which i think is the date it was removed, and i would guess they don't replace them on a yearly basis, i wonder if there is a way to track down the exact period my stick was in use.
I will probably get that book but would still appreciate if you could forward those photos to me.
Cheers!
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 12:34
  #25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by EXFIN View Post
Some of the early GR1A’s were converted from existing GR1’s which involved removing both guns and installing the TIRRS infra red video system and a SLIR which I believe was an upgraded version from the Chieftain main battle tank. The GR1A apart from not having any guns was fully capable of carrying conventional & nuclear weapons. The stick was exactly the same as the GR1 but with the event button ‘wired in’. The Nav/back seater also had a weapon release button too. I flew ZA369 at TTTE as they were released to various units prior to the formation of II(AC)Sqn. If I remember rightly ZA404 was present at TWCU about the same time.
That is awesome that i have had 2 replies from pilots who have flown the very aircraft my stick was from, i guess you all have logs to show which aircraft you flew, my log inst that big, consisting of probably an 60-90 minutes worth of Chippie AEF flights and unfortunately my 3822 got lost so I will never be able to find out which aircraft i flew, if you can call taking the controls for a short while flying! plus more recently i took the controls of a Piper PA28 Warrior 11, in a way i feel like i had more control of that than the chippie because i actually got to taxi the aircraft, something we didnt do in the cadets i guess probably because of the Chipmunk being a tail dragger i expect it takes considerable skill to taxi one of them.
I wonder if i can find out if ZA369 was one that was converted from GR1 or one of the later batch built models.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 16:56
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Just This Once... View Post

...with full ammo tanks and both guns at fast rate was the order of the day. It felt rather good, to say the least - brrrrrrrrrrrpppp.
And the smell of burnt cordite (or whatever it was).....Mmmmmmm.

Most of the restrictions from the GR1 days were lifted by the time of Afghanistan and the gun was a very useful low collateral persuasive tool. Long bursts in high angle dive from long range were the norm.

Night EO shallow angle strafe was another thing entirely though!
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 20:40
  #27 (permalink)  
 
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I flew ZA369 twice in Feb 85. A 1.20 laydown bombing trip and a 1.45 TFR trip. Cheers

OAP
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 20:08
  #28 (permalink)  
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I got myself a new stick top, this one is from a GR4 ZA449. I've done a bit or research into this aircraft and found out it carried the name Strathisla during operation Telic and I think it has seen action in Operation Herrick, Ellamy, and is still in service now on Operation Herrick. I wonder if it also was involved in the gulf wars as a GR1 I cant seem to find much info about it when it was a GR1 but as my stick is a GR4 I am more interested in the aircraft history as that.
There are a few more controls on this stick compared to the GR1, i think i know what some of them are, the big red trigger at the back is obviously for firing guns and missiles, there is a smaller round red button on the front I assume that is for bombs, however, unlike the GR1 stick it has no guard and the trigger is also unguarded, so perhaps the round red button is the arming button and has to be pressed in conjuction with the trigger so maybe the trigger is for guns bombs and missiles? to the right of the round red button is a round "switch" which moves up and down and left and right, i think this is the trim controls to the right of that is another switch thing which moves up and down left and right and can be pushed down as well perhaps this was used to select different targets or items from a menu on a computer, perhaps it took over from the hand controller on the left console,there are 3 other buttons which i dont know what they did, one was probably a transmit button. another selector is on the left side of the stick it moves up and down and can be pressed, i read on the F3 version this selected missiles, long range and short range and guns, I presume on the GR4 it was still used for weapons selecting but between bombs and missiles and guns and there is the paddle switch at the bottom which is similar to the one on my GR1 stick so i think its failry safe to say it performs the same function, autopilot disconnect.
If anyone can enlighten me to what those other 3 buttons did i would be most grateful, and also if my guesses are correct about the otjher controls. And of anyone has more info on ZA449 I would also love to hear that.
Cheers.


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Old 25th Aug 2018, 22:26
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Jayviator,

Well, I was a back seater but here is my contribution. Firstly, the GR4 is (soon was) a software driven aircraft, so the functions of the different buttons varied with the software, which changed about annually. That having been said you are roughly correct. The central ‘China mans hat” is the trim. The right hand “castle switch’ controlled various display and menu functions. The trigger and the red, left hand, button both controlled weapon release. This too varied with software variant but broadly speaking the trigger released forward firing weapons and the red button allowed the computer to release gravity bombs. There was certainly one software release that allowed a trigger press to fire ALARMs and the gun simultaneously, giving you the possibility of shooting down your own missiles shortly after release!

The small button on the top and the two on the side control the Terrain Following Radar, Flight Director and Autopilot ( cant remember which is which but the sequence was Top/ bottom/ middle to disengage and Middle/bottom/top to reengage) These give the pilot the ability to engage and disengage the Auto TF using his / her right hand only as conditions change.

Hope this helps.

TL
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 22:33
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Oh, and the forward/back/ press under your thumb is transmit box 1 (forward) box 2 (aft) and press (something completely unrelated to radios!)
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 23:05
  #31 (permalink)  
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Thanks Timelord that is very helpful
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 04:15
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Top/bottom/middle (also known as Take Back Manual for the obvious disengage reason):

Top - autopilot
Bottom - Flight Director
Middle - TFR
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 08:54
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Pressing down on the radio transmit switch selected air-to-air weapons and the relevant HUD modes: one press for guns, a second for missiles, subsequent presses to attempt lock-on.

Both trigger and weapon release button are unguarded but are functionally independent: no combination presses required. The separate (guarded) late arm switch on the coaming essentially acts as a safety catch for both.

The paddle switch is properly called the Instinctive Cutout (or ICO) and as well as disconnecting the autopilot, it disengages the nose wheel steering system. This needs to be done in a hurry if it malfunctions during takeoff or landing.

The ‘castle switch’ functions changed a lot during my time on the jet. I have to admit that some of the more obscure ones (FLIR gain, head-down display modes) were never committed firmly to my memory and the functions differed depending on what was displayed on the head-down display. The ones that do stick in the mind are ‘left’ and ‘right’ in the normal mode, which step through the navigational waypoints in the planned route. A guaranteed way to cheese off the WSO but very useful when flying a lucky passenger on an air experience sortie!

In return for this information can you tell me/us where you got this and how much you paid, because I want one too
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 09:57
  #34 (permalink)  
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Cheers Easy street that was very informative, is that info regarding the GR4?
As for where i got the stick, eBay is your friend, they vary in price but you would be hard pressed to get one for less than £250 mine set me back £265 there is one at the moment with the initial starting bid at £200 there's one with a buy it now price at £349 or best offer, personally I think that's a bit steep. Some of them don't even have any paperwork or aircraft serial number associated with them, that's important to me as I like to find out about the history of the aircraft they have been removed from.
One company has made a full sized resin replica which sells at 110 euros (£96.82) but who wants a replica!
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 13:41
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
I flew ZA369 twice in Feb 85. A 1.20 laydown bombing trip and a 1.45 TFR trip. Cheers

OAP
I last flew ZA369 exactly 10 years later - Feb 95 - leading a pair to Norway (Ex Strong Resolve?). Bad snowstorms, dwindling fuel and an unplanned and IMC blind join on a VC-10, thanks to a helpful F3 that we forcibly glued ourselves to. If I remember correctly we were all grounded afterwards due to (a rather bizarre) fuel contamination with a VC-10 that had gone on to 'infect' loads of receivers.

Doesn't feel like 23 years ago.
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Old 26th Aug 2018, 18:49
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Cheers Easy street that was very informative, is that info regarding the GR4?
Yes, GR4... these stick tops (front cockpit only in 2-stickers) were part of the upgrade from GR1.

I’ve remembered another consistent function of the castle switch - a long press ‘in’ selected Target of Opportunity mode, which allowed most air-to-ground weapons to be aimed through the HUD at whatever the pilot wished without the need for data to be inserted to the main computer beforehand. Didn’t work for ALARM or Storm Shadow, but most others could be used in this way with varying degrees of accuracy...
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 08:13
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Easy Street.....your memory is clearly much better than mine as I've been struggling to remember the role of some of those buttons.

I do recall MBT (More Bloody TFR - Middle/Bottom/Top) and TBM (Take Back Manual - Top/Bottom/Middle) on the front thumb and rear 2 buttons though.

Probably flew ZA369 at some stage but don't have time to look back through 3 logbooks right now!
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Old 27th Aug 2018, 13:11
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Jayviator,

When ZA449 was a GR1 it spent some time in the flight test world. We had it at Boscombe Down on 'A' Squadron/Fixed Wing Test Squadron and I first flew it there on 27 August 1987 and last flew it there on 17 May 1990. We used it for training, supporting some missile tracking system trials as a target and for RHWR trials. I also flew a sortie looking to expand the crosswind landing envelope of some of the degraded CSAS modes, a 3-tank handling sortie plus a sortie as a receiver during the Tristar tanker development trials. I don't think that there was ever any flight test instrumentation fitted so we must just have used on-board observations plus data from the ADR.

I also flew it when I was on Experimental Flying Squadron at Farnborough, the first sortie being on 6 December 1993 and the last 26 January 1994. We used it for training flying and again as a target supporting other trials including a helmet mounted sight trial in a Jaguar. EFS moved to Boscombe Down in April 1994 when military flying at Farnborough ceased. I flew 449 again at Boscombe on 5 December 1994 on a sortie to clear a fixed FLIR pod on station 5. I think that it may then have been on the strength of the SAOEU as this was their trial as a pre-cursor to the GR4 entering service but it was initially a joint trial with EFS.

Happy memories!
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 19:47
  #39 (permalink)  
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Thanks again for the very informative replies and it is nice to hear the personal accounts of the flights in the particular aircraft. It will probably be quite some time before I get to hear stories about more recent missons ZA449 has been involved in. I have a feeling my stick from 449 has seen more combat action than my GR1 stick from 369 especially as 369 was a recce version well i know it was involved in a lot more operations. I wonder if I mifght be a bit sadistic but I enjoy the fact that the trigger and button has probably given some terrorist a really bad day, probably more from the button than the trigger. Mind you they could have mde it a bigger button, at least big enough to draw a smiley face on, like someone did on my GR1 stick!
I beleive ZA449 is still in service, well i know she has a new stick and a new total fuel contents indicator as my latest part is the fuel indicator and thats from 449 as well! I just need one more intrument now to have the full front cockpit panels, minus a few buttons and switches.
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 10:38
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jayviator View Post
draw a smiley face on,
This or this ?
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