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P8 Infrastructure at Lossiemouth

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P8 Infrastructure at Lossiemouth

Old 25th Apr 2018, 07:21
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Is it your position, TOFU that discussing the suggestions/demands from this thread: all aircraft hangared due salt enriched environment, reopen Kinross because they need their own airfield, three hangar bays for nine a/c, new-build dedicated admin offices & workshops, is exclusively for those who "understand maritime patrol " ? If this represents current insider thinking it goes some way to explaining why our defence budget doesn't seem to stretch far. If some of this is for training/maintenance shared with other NATO members it begins to make sense but is that the case?
No, not in the least, didn't say anything like this...just put you right about the need for a simulator. I could bang on all day about the recent history of the kipper fleet, but let's live in the present...we are (or seem to be) getting the P8 and it is (or seems to be) going to Lossie. Perfect...no, better than what we have now...by a million miles. I don't know (because I am now purposefully out of the loop) but I would imagine, a ton of work (and money!) and challenges of all sorts, to re-establish this absolutely vital component of our defence capabilities.
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 07:40
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you for “putting me right” but the post I was responding to mentioned a simulator. Since he spoke of locating it in the old Jag sim building I took this to mean a regular simulator not the full crew mission trainer thingy that you’re talking about. That building is nowhere near big enough to accommodate something I imagine is roughly 737 fuselage sized

Saday you can wish for twenty airframes just as you could wish to see The Beatles and Elvis play live together. Just out of interest, what’s the greatest number of Nimrods that could have been generated to fly on any given day at its peak?

If the money fairy were to drop in, surely Triton would give us more capability than the extra P8’s?

Last edited by ShotOne; 25th Apr 2018 at 08:21.
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 08:37
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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A serious question with no ulterior motive; would the new facilities have been needed if we had continued with the Nimrod 4?
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 10:01
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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GBZ : I think there would have been some changes with the MR4 but I would not be able to tell you what. Some of the other guys on this web site might be able to answer your question. I left regular service in 75, worked on the Mk3 for two point five years and then the VR back on the MR2 from 78 until 94.

ShotOne:
How long is a piece of string. Most of them at Kinloss in the mid 90's were dripping fuel everywhere and I heard quite a few were limited to 55,000 lb. One or two had been lost , there was usually between four to six in Flight sheds at BAe Woodford being converted and chopped about and three were at 51 sqn. I would hazard a guess in answer to your question - at its peak the nimrod fleet could probably field twenty five ish aeroplanes capable of flying with 84,000lb and generating a 9 hr sortie and spread out between Kinloss, StMawgan, Wyton, And Luqa u(the latter until 1977). Maybe Wyton is not part of this question.
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 10:32
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 5aday View Post
The current order for 9 aeroplanes is woefully inadequate. .
It was never going to be anymore than the number of Nimrods that were cancelled, at least on initial order. Can you imagine the conversation " We'd like 15' "But you said you could do the job with 9 Nimrods, and you tell me these are better than the Nimrod"

Although it's interesting to note that 15 airframe serials have apparently been reserved for P-8 (Which means nothing, as there were serials reserved for future C17s that never materialised, but does show some degree of future thinking)
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 13:51
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Fifteen is the number that has been put forward to the House of Commons Defence Comittee I believe.
Lossiemouth will struggle unless they cut more turf into hard standing and possibly hardened shelters and hangars.
That does not answer the real question of ground and aircrew provision and accommodation. Six extra aeroplanes
means possibly another squadron of approximately 60 to 70 men, probably the same amount of ground crew, other support crews and the inevitable training squadron such as Kinloss had with the two MCT set ups, and two dynamic sims.
I guess there will be plenty of houses that will be coming on the market in Elgin, Forres and surrounding areas as well.
A lucky escape for some who had the rug pulled out under them when the Nimrod was scrapped.
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 17:16
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
Surplus,

Waterbeach is in the process of being demolished to provide a new Town, the same fate as has befallen Oakington.
LOADSAMONEY....

Harry_Enfield_-_Loadsamoney_cover_art.jpg
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 17:31
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Just out of interest, what’s the greatest number of Nimrods that could have been generated to fly on any given day at its peak?
It just doesn’t work that way. You have to look at it something like this:

Transit time 2 hours, time on task 4 hours, continuous cover required for 24-48 hours. So the on task aircraft will have been there 2 hours when the aircraft they relieved is landing and their relief is getting airborne. Another airframe will have been prepped for the next sortie and the landing aircraft will be allocated to the sortie after that. Now multiply this by 3, add a SAR aircraft and crew and a couple of other priority tasks. You are already 3 aircraft down as there is one each in Gib, Cyprus and Lajes. You can do the sums yourself, and yes we did do it in the MR1/2 days. 51 would not come into the reckoning as they were tasked completely separately.

YS
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Old 25th Apr 2018, 20:21
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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9 is probably at the upper end of what most would have predicted before the announcement, especially given the many confident predictions beforehand that we wouldn't be buying any. I guess it boils down to what we have acquired the 9 airframes to do, and whether and to what extent they can do it.
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Old 26th Apr 2018, 19:10
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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5aday,

Boeing will resume 737 production when they have built the P-8's?

Er, NO! Boeing are building 57 737's a month as their best selling aircraft and the US Navy have a commitment to over a hundred P-8's ordered incrementally.
IF the UK wants any more P-8A's then they merely order them through the US FMS system as we ordered the first 9.

Last edited by pr00ne; 29th Apr 2018 at 15:44.
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Old 27th Apr 2018, 21:24
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Lossiemouth is to become the UK and Norwegian P8 main training and maintenance base - hence the need for a 3 aircraft maintenance hangar (aircraft not undergoing maintenance will be kept outside on the line, just like in the MR2 days) and a full mission flight simulator. It will also be the main P8 logistics centre this side of the pond, and will be see a lot more USN P8 'visitors'. That is the reason that Boeing are putting so much into the project, they are getting the money from more than just the UK procurement.
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Old 28th Apr 2018, 19:54
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
5aday,

Boeing will resule 737 production when they have built the P-8's?

Er, NO! Boeing are building 57 737's a month as their best selling aircraft and the US Navy have a commitment to over a hundred P-8's ordered incrementally.
IF the UK wants any more P-8A's then they merely order them through the US FMS system as we ordered the first 9.
Only half right pr00ne, the P-8A production line will cease in 2022 with long lead items meaning last orders in the next 12 months. So if the UK want more yes they can order them through the FMS system quite easily, but that window of opportunity is not far from closing.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 07:19
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Linedog View Post
And pay for it with what???
Isn't the UK the 5th richest country? So where is all that money going.

Im sure we have a few billion spare in the tax evasion money / Mexican drug cartel money that's sat in the Cayman Islands

Last edited by gr4techie; 29th Apr 2018 at 07:36.
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Old 9th May 2018, 16:31
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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When the first Royal Air Force P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft arrives at RAF Lossiemouth it will be ready to fly with a UK crew on day one thanks in part to a team of RAF personnel embedded with the US Navy.
RAFA report
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Old 9th May 2018, 17:07
  #55 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ricardian View Post
When the first Royal Air Force P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft arrives at RAF Lossiemouth it will be ready to fly with a UK crew on day one thanks in part to a team of RAF personnel embedded with the US Navy.
RAFA report
But where will the crews and engineers live? What with there being no accomodation there now and another Typhoon Sqn coming soon?
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Old 9th May 2018, 17:58
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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There must be some new housing developments up there the RAF can buy up en masse, just like they have in Lincolnshire.
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Old 10th May 2018, 09:46
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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The initial requirement was for 21 Nimrod MR4 which was reduced to 18 in 2002, in 2004 it was reduced 16 but Geoff Hoon stated 12 would suffice and in 2009 it became 9.
It doesn't matter how good an aircraft is it can only be in one place at a time and with Russian military activity increasing more aircraft should be ordered.
unfortunately it is unlikely to happen as neither the Conservatives or Labour are particulary pro defence due to public apathy about defence matters and therefore not a vote winner.

Last edited by A4scooter; 10th May 2018 at 09:48. Reason: .
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Old 23rd May 2018, 12:30
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pr00ne View Post
chevvron,

Ballykelly was sold off years ago and has been fully redeveloped.
That's sad. My second ATC camp; we were allowed to fire Stens but had to truck to Aldergrove for our Shackleton flight due to re-surfacing at Ballkelly, which finished the day we came home(1963).
OK how about chucking the brown jobs out of Abingdon and using the Beverley hangar then? Was built tall enough so a Beverley fitted in without having to jack the nose up.
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Old 23rd May 2018, 12:32
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Linedog View Post
And pay for it with what???
Swap them for the Sentinels about to be retired?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 18:48
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Those interested in P8, Poseidon, Cambridge Royal Aeronautical Society next lecture is being given by the RAF Gp Capt responsible for the project at Cambridge University Engineering Laboratory on Thursday 1st November at 19.30
interstingly the picture on the poster shows it in the hemp colour scheme.
Drag will be there if anyone would want to meet up for a beer beforehand. Coff came up a few times bless him.
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