Vulcan Memories
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Unspoken, though one crew said last man out would reconnect canopy jettison cable 
We once practiced a low level emergency. All engines to flight idle and established a climb converting speed to height. Made an impressive 2,000 ft height gain.
The kill was the low speed wheels down scenario. The one at Cottesmore was loss of control and in Malta after a heavy landing and attempted go round. I think a Victor suffered a similar rear crew loss in the circuit.
Without checking my books very few rear crew were lost when the pilots survived. The pilots didn't eject in the Coningsby crash.
We once practiced a low level emergency. All engines to flight idle and established a climb converting speed to height. Made an impressive 2,000 ft height gain.
The kill was the low speed wheels down scenario. The one at Cottesmore was loss of control and in Malta after a heavy landing and attempted go round. I think a Victor suffered a similar rear crew loss in the circuit.
Without checking my books very few rear crew were lost when the pilots survived. The pilots didn't eject in the Coningsby crash.
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I'm surprised how archaic the nav gear was.
Consol was a post-war mod of a German wartime system. Rudolf Hess almost certainly used the Stavanger one to track his flight up and across the North Sea.
H2S, used as recently as Blackbuck, was used in Lancasters in 1943/44.
The absence of self-contained systems such as INS to attack the Russian homeland in the 1970s is surprising.
Consol was a post-war mod of a German wartime system. Rudolf Hess almost certainly used the Stavanger one to track his flight up and across the North Sea.
H2S, used as recently as Blackbuck, was used in Lancasters in 1943/44.
The absence of self-contained systems such as INS to attack the Russian homeland in the 1970s is surprising.
I'm surprised how archaic the nav gear was.
Consol was a post-war mod of a German wartime system. Rudolf Hess almost certainly used the Stavanger one to track his flight up and across the North Sea.
H2S, used as recently as Blackbuck, was used in Lancasters in 1943/44.
The absence of self-contained systems such as INS to attack the Russian homeland in the 1970s is surprising.
Consol was a post-war mod of a German wartime system. Rudolf Hess almost certainly used the Stavanger one to track his flight up and across the North Sea.
H2S, used as recently as Blackbuck, was used in Lancasters in 1943/44.
The absence of self-contained systems such as INS to attack the Russian homeland in the 1970s is surprising.
I have lost track of this thread a bit since I have no recollection of ever using Consol on the Vulcan.
As to your question ; No INS in 70s but an entirely self contained nav system based around H2S ( somewhat different to the Lancaster fit) and a very sophisticated doppler fed electro mechanical analogue Ground Position Indicator. Astro was also practiced a lot.
Unfixed the GPI accuracy was a mile or so per hour. Radar fix accuracy was measured in yards - well mine were anyway!
Last edited by Timelord; 28th Jan 2018 at 21:53.
Cazalet - we did have a self contained system - it was called astro!
So were mine - just rather a lot of them 
On the NBS course at Lindholme I once "bombed" the wrong reservoir dam in Yorkshire (in fact the one I attacked was over the county boundary in Durham). The resulting error of 9 miles counted towards my course average and pretty well guaranteed my posting onto tankers, for which I was eternally grateful. Certainly no chance of getting on 617!
Yes, used pulse radar with a thing called a Janus array aerial which clonked left right left - amazingly archaic to look at. Was replaced by a CW radar system whose name escapes me, which was smaller, lighter and more reliable
Unfixed the GPI accuracy was a mile or so per hour. Radar fix accuracy was measured in yards - well mine were anyway!
On the NBS course at Lindholme I once "bombed" the wrong reservoir dam in Yorkshire (in fact the one I attacked was over the county boundary in Durham). The resulting error of 9 miles counted towards my course average and pretty well guaranteed my posting onto tankers, for which I was eternally grateful. Certainly no chance of getting on 617!
Wasn't Green Satin and Blue Silk Doppler systems
Thread Starter
Thanks Pontius - the TV show I mentioned in the original post also had a rear crewmember who spoke about the difficulty of bailing out when the gear was down, he even illustrated the challenges with XH558 sitting quietly on the pan.
Cazalet - we did have a self contained system - it was called astro!
So were mine - just rather a lot of them On the NBS course at Lindholme I once "bombed" the wrong reservoir dam in Yorkshire (in fact the one I attacked was over the county boundary in Durham). The resulting error of 9 miles counted towards my course average and pretty well guaranteed my posting onto tankers, for which I was eternally grateful. Certainly no chance of getting on 617!
Yes, used pulse radar with a thing called a Janus array aerial which clonked left right left - amazingly archaic to look at. Was replaced by a CW radar system whose name escapes me, which was smaller, lighter and more reliable
So were mine - just rather a lot of them
On the NBS course at Lindholme I once "bombed" the wrong reservoir dam in Yorkshire (in fact the one I attacked was over the county boundary in Durham). The resulting error of 9 miles counted towards my course average and pretty well guaranteed my posting onto tankers, for which I was eternally grateful. Certainly no chance of getting on 617!Yes, used pulse radar with a thing called a Janus array aerial which clonked left right left - amazingly archaic to look at. Was replaced by a CW radar system whose name escapes me, which was smaller, lighter and more reliable
Blue Steel aircraft would use the missile INS slaved into the aircraft system for better results.
Last edited by The Oberon; 29th Jan 2018 at 06:00.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
With GPI 4 it was 6.
With GPI 6 and HRS I thought nearer 3.
How old fashioned. By the 70s we used feet and it did improve accuracy.
In one bombing competition a tracking and timing exercise was introduced. Aircraft were tracked by radar along a 50 mile corridor and penalised if the deviated from track by more than 200 yards at high level, and had to pass a gate at the mid point with points deducted for every second out. Most, if not all, got the full score of 100+50 points. That exercise was dropped the following year.
With GPI 6 and HRS I thought nearer 3.
Radar fix accuracy was measured in yards - well mine were anyway!
In one bombing competition a tracking and timing exercise was introduced. Aircraft were tracked by radar along a 50 mile corridor and penalised if the deviated from track by more than 200 yards at high level, and had to pass a gate at the mid point with points deducted for every second out. Most, if not all, got the full score of 100+50 points. That exercise was dropped the following year.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 29th Jan 2018 at 13:31.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
ACW, I was, I didn't consider an unsuy ejection as supporting the argument for rear crew seats. Actually rear crew seats could have affected the success of pilot ejection.
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Blue Steel aircraft would use the missile INS slaved into the aircraft system
Astro certainly qualifies as a self-contained system, but has a rather obvious limitation for a 24/7 capability. A lunar distance shot using the sun in the right conditions would give you a daytime fix. Did they issue tables for doing that? It's a pig of a calculation in pre-PC computer days to do the calc from scratch and would be hopeless at flying speeds.
They trialled a rear crew ejection seat in a Valiant at one time. It worked OK but the problems were in the aircraft.
For all three rear crew to eject would require a hatch or hatches across the width of the cabin. None of the V aircraft could accept this without a total redesign of the cockpit section. Even if it was possible then there would have to be sequencing to avoid the front and rear crew colliding.
They looked at the rear crew going through a central exit but this would mean the outer seats tipping and leaving at an angle or the outer members shuffling their seats to the centre, in turn, after the central one had left. Then what do you do with the used seat chassis?
It went into the 'too difficult' tray.
For all three rear crew to eject would require a hatch or hatches across the width of the cabin. None of the V aircraft could accept this without a total redesign of the cockpit section. Even if it was possible then there would have to be sequencing to avoid the front and rear crew colliding.
They looked at the rear crew going through a central exit but this would mean the outer seats tipping and leaving at an angle or the outer members shuffling their seats to the centre, in turn, after the central one had left. Then what do you do with the used seat chassis?
It went into the 'too difficult' tray.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Cazelet, the Free-Fall aircraft were retro fitted with a pair of coupled free running gyros similar to that in the Lightning but with a different purpose. This Heading Reference System was accurate to 0.25 deg per hour or 2 miles across track.
For sight reduction we had 3 volumes AP3270, these were also used by the USAF with a different reference. The Red Band volume had pre computed data for the main navigation stars (57 of them IIRC), Yellow Band and Green Band had sight reduction tables for any body but essente sun and moon.
A practiced navigator could calculate z 3-star fix, take the shots, then plot the fix, calculate a wind, and make a course correction in a 40 minute cycle.
On the Vulcan it was usual to precalculate the shots and in the air for the radar operator to take the shots. Because of the cockpit canopy the Vulcan had two sextant mounts. With proper selection both would be used.
The technique was to use a box or sandwich fix of two stars. Typically 5 shots were taken A A B B B A A with the fix time the middle B. Each shot was one minute with one minute interval. The total time was 11 minutes.
There were competition techniques with the AEO shooting one side and interval reduced to 30 seconds. An AB AB fix could take just 2.5 minutes.
On one SAC bombing competition over 1200 miles and two sorties, Bob Tomkin's got errors in the order of 0.4 nm on first night and 1.2 on the second which placed then comfortably ahead of the B58s with there astro trackers.
For sight reduction we had 3 volumes AP3270, these were also used by the USAF with a different reference. The Red Band volume had pre computed data for the main navigation stars (57 of them IIRC), Yellow Band and Green Band had sight reduction tables for any body but essente sun and moon.
A practiced navigator could calculate z 3-star fix, take the shots, then plot the fix, calculate a wind, and make a course correction in a 40 minute cycle.
On the Vulcan it was usual to precalculate the shots and in the air for the radar operator to take the shots. Because of the cockpit canopy the Vulcan had two sextant mounts. With proper selection both would be used.
The technique was to use a box or sandwich fix of two stars. Typically 5 shots were taken A A B B B A A with the fix time the middle B. Each shot was one minute with one minute interval. The total time was 11 minutes.
There were competition techniques with the AEO shooting one side and interval reduced to 30 seconds. An AB AB fix could take just 2.5 minutes.
On one SAC bombing competition over 1200 miles and two sorties, Bob Tomkin's got errors in the order of 0.4 nm on first night and 1.2 on the second which placed then comfortably ahead of the B58s with there astro trackers.