ANALYSIS: UK preparing ground for F-35B's arrival
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ANALYSIS: UK preparing ground for F-35B's arrival
Lengthy article on Flight Global on UK progress. All sounds very positive.
Sixteen years after signing up as a Level 1 partner on the US military's Joint Strike Fighter programme, the UK is now just months away from welcoming its first examples of the Lockheed Martin F-35B to home shores.
Nine F-35Bs will arrive at RAF Marham in mid-2018, after making a transatlantic crossing accompanied by Airbus A330 Voyager tanker/transports. The STOVL aircraft will support the work-up process for the reformed 617 Sqn, which should achieve initial operational capability next December. Bradshaw says the unit will be cleared to deploy on international operations from early 2019, with its Block 3F software-standard aircraft having a UK-specific weapons fit comprising Raytheon Systems Paveway IV precision-guided bombs, plus MBDA ASRAAM and Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles. Later, Block 4 additions will include MBDA's Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile and its extended-range Spear ground-attack weapon.
Bradshaw says 2018 "is going to be momentous", noting that the new type's introduction will occur during the centenary year of the RAF's formation. The F-35B will, however, be a shared asset in UK service.
Bradshaw says 2018 "is going to be momentous", noting that the new type's introduction will occur during the centenary year of the RAF's formation. The F-35B will, however, be a shared asset in UK service.
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It says 16 years after signing up in the quote - sure we delayed formally ordering them for as long as possible because then they go on the Treasury's books
Even 11 years - say Spitfires ordered at the time of Munich and delivered in time for Korea................
Even 11 years - say Spitfires ordered at the time of Munich and delivered in time for Korea................
It's a travesty compared with the exemplary progress of Typhoon, where the equivalent to Tier 1 signature was made in 1985 and the first aircraft hit the OEU in late 2003. Which would be 18 years....oh, wait.
Remember that the MRCA aircraft that they are ultimately replacing first flew in August 1974 and production Tornado were being delivered in 1979....
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A straightforward clarification from my time as Warton's principal Eurofighter marketeer from 1988 to 2001.
F35: Development contract 1996 - USAF ISD 2011 = 15 years
Typhoon: Development contract 1988 - RAF ISD 2003 = 15 years
All that went on prior to formal development in the US and UK relating to each aircraft was equally protracted in terms of timescale and investigative activity. The above dates are more definitive in terms of comparison.
As for costs, I was intimately aware of the details for each aircraft up to 2001. At that time, my US marketing counterpart in Australia, where we were both active in presenting our respective products to the Australian DoD, was hailing F35 to be around half the price of Typhoon and way more capable. As we now know, the former is well disproven in Typhoon's favour; with the latter yet to be properly assessed.
F35: Development contract 1996 - USAF ISD 2011 = 15 years
Typhoon: Development contract 1988 - RAF ISD 2003 = 15 years
All that went on prior to formal development in the US and UK relating to each aircraft was equally protracted in terms of timescale and investigative activity. The above dates are more definitive in terms of comparison.
As for costs, I was intimately aware of the details for each aircraft up to 2001. At that time, my US marketing counterpart in Australia, where we were both active in presenting our respective products to the Australian DoD, was hailing F35 to be around half the price of Typhoon and way more capable. As we now know, the former is well disproven in Typhoon's favour; with the latter yet to be properly assessed.
The equivalent to the Tier 1 signature back then being the MoU signed in 1969, so more like 10 years. But also a very different world back then.
Point being, you can't have people beating F35 with a stick that is equally applicable to other contemporary programmes.
Point taken Mr Boffin but remember that both Typhoon and F35 followed on from demo programmes which MRCA/Tornado did not benefit from and like F35 it was a hugely complex programme. It also predated the highly capable computing systems that Typhoon and F35 utilised to reduce development testing...
Point taken Mr Boffin but remember that both Typhoon and F35 followed on from demo programmes which MRCA/Tornado did not benefit from and like F35 it was a hugely complex programme. It also predated the highly capable computing systems that Typhoon and F35 utilised to reduce development testing...
Imagine how long each of those would have taken if they hadn't had those computing systems...
Last edited by muppetofthenorth; 6th Dec 2017 at 15:06.
compact 3 spool engines) etc.
QUOTE
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I rather liked the comments on here
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/infr...-prepare-f-35/
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/infr...-prepare-f-35/
and in the real world Marham will have to send F-35 engines (the F135) to Turkey (that renowned inventor, manufacturer and global jet engine specialist country) and fly their aircraft to Italy for major maintenance because apparently while we can design and build large parts of it and carry out very complex airframe life cycle tests in hugely expensive test rigs, we are apparently incapable of F-35 airframe maintenance. You really could not make this **** up.
And this is what we get for being a Tier One Partner? Why is no one demanding to know why the UK didn’t also get the FAL that is now assembling complete European aircraft in Italy?All this money to support a load of bull****.
We should have done what Italy did – promise to buy a few hundred, bung a few Senators, get the big contracts and then reduce the numbers we actually buy. Less future revenues but zero up front costs, none of the time and costs of being in the USA but a faster higher short term gain. Our F-35s could have been on QE next week because we could have built what WE need when WE need them. No queuing up behind the USMC … Obama was right. We are ‘at the back of the queue’….
And this is what we get for being a Tier One Partner? Why is no one demanding to know why the UK didn’t also get the FAL that is now assembling complete European aircraft in Italy?All this money to support a load of bull****.
We should have done what Italy did – promise to buy a few hundred, bung a few Senators, get the big contracts and then reduce the numbers we actually buy. Less future revenues but zero up front costs, none of the time and costs of being in the USA but a faster higher short term gain. Our F-35s could have been on QE next week because we could have built what WE need when WE need them. No queuing up behind the USMC … Obama was right. We are ‘at the back of the queue’….
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The original contract (Nov 2001) was to deliver a JORD-compliant Block 3 aircraft to IOT&E in early 2011, with IOT&E wrapped up and reporting out, and Block 3 IOC declared, in mid-2012.
The DOT&E office, which has been historically more right than wrong about things, estimates that IOT&E will not start before late 2018, that it's most likely to begin in 2019 and could slip into 2020. If the middle date is right, the original contract goal will be reached eight years late and more than 18 years after SDD award.
(Of course, you might also be persnickety and note that Block 4.1, delivered from 2021 onwards if the schedule holds, will largely comprise fixes to Block 3F deficiencies.)
Comparisons to Typhoon are problematic, also, because of the major post-Cold War political upheaval in the program. F-35 has always been fully funded.
The DOT&E office, which has been historically more right than wrong about things, estimates that IOT&E will not start before late 2018, that it's most likely to begin in 2019 and could slip into 2020. If the middle date is right, the original contract goal will be reached eight years late and more than 18 years after SDD award.
(Of course, you might also be persnickety and note that Block 4.1, delivered from 2021 onwards if the schedule holds, will largely comprise fixes to Block 3F deficiencies.)
Comparisons to Typhoon are problematic, also, because of the major post-Cold War political upheaval in the program. F-35 has always been fully funded.
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Turkish Engine Overhaul Facility
Does anyone know if the Turkish Engine maintenance facility is built / ready?
Is it realistic for Israel to be sending its engines to Turkey for deep maintenance?
Is it realistic for Israel to be sending its engines to Turkey for deep maintenance?
I read in, I think, flight that Israel are building their own overhaul facilities as they don't want to rely on another nation. Which the UK presumably could do if we wanted to splash out ~£1bn replicating facilities that will also be available in Norway and the Netherlands which are also due to have engine overhaul facilities.
I think I'm right in saying that the UK will be a global repair hub providing maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade services for F-35 avionic and aircraft components, at a site in North Wales. I've also seen it described as the "avionics sustainment hub". I don't know how that stacks up against the various other hubs, but it's something.
Interesting timing for this new thread. Today the Israelis have announced that their first nine F-35Is (called Adir - means 'awesome' in Hebrew, apparently) are "operational"
The ?Adir? (F-35I) Is Declared Operational
Compare that with the UK, where 617 Sqn is due to take up residence at Marham with its first nine aircraft in the summer of 2018 (with IOC when?).
So the UK's status as the only 'Level 1' partner in the development of the aircraft apparently puts it months, if not years, behind Israel, which is a 'Security Cooperative Participant'.
Presumably Israel has a lot more clout in the US than the UK's 'special relationship' affords it. And that's without even mentioning the latest Trump shenanigans over Jerusalem.
airsound
The ?Adir? (F-35I) Is Declared Operational
Compare that with the UK, where 617 Sqn is due to take up residence at Marham with its first nine aircraft in the summer of 2018 (with IOC when?).
So the UK's status as the only 'Level 1' partner in the development of the aircraft apparently puts it months, if not years, behind Israel, which is a 'Security Cooperative Participant'.
Presumably Israel has a lot more clout in the US than the UK's 'special relationship' affords it. And that's without even mentioning the latest Trump shenanigans over Jerusalem.
airsound
airsound, I think you will find that their I's are A models, with a few mods, not B models. I am not convinced that the slower IOC for UK is only attributable to external factors, but I don't understand the internal gear meshing of the MoD as well as you probably do.
The Israelis seem to have a different risk management process, and possibly a faster one. But that's mostly an impression based on dealing with them about 20 years ago on a helicopter contract. I don't have any hard facts for you.
The Israelis seem to have a different risk management process, and possibly a faster one. But that's mostly an impression based on dealing with them about 20 years ago on a helicopter contract. I don't have any hard facts for you.