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Argentinean Submarine down - USN rescue team mobilised

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Argentinean Submarine down - USN rescue team mobilised

Old 22nd Nov 2017, 12:28
  #61 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
La Nación is reporting now that of the 44 on board, 6 are "Buzeos tacticos" who are the Argentine equivalent of SBS and who are all highly trained divers, and would be trained in underwater egress from a submarine. I would have thought there would be an escape attempt by them by now, if oxygen levels were critically low, and if the boat really is in 230ft. So maybe oxygen is not yet critical, or else the scenario is bad.
Even if their special forces were on board they would not have the gases either mixtures or quantity to ascend from that depth (75m) on board allowing for decompression stops required to eliminate Nitrogen from the bloodstream. Read an autobiography from and ex SBS man, they used Oxygen for very shallow operations otherwise air for normal operations. If they had to approach a target unless a beach/installation recce they would surface and go in with canoes.

Even if the divers escaped, unless there was someone on the surface, what would they do then?

Unless this boat is found soon then I suspect that the outcome will be tragedy for all concerned.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 12:30
  #62 (permalink)  
 
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Battery Acid and Saltwater combined produces......?

Chlorine gas is it?

How does that affect the air supply inside a sealed Submarine?

Are the batteries old fashioned Lead/Acid Batteries or is there a different technology that eliminates that risk?

Why would the Sub not be able to surface or remain on the surface if there was water ingestion while snorkeling considering it communicated its situation to Higher Command and were told to head home?

Folks....start doing some critical thinking here.

There is something seriously amiss in what is being made public and in turn being discussed here.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 12:37
  #63 (permalink)  
 
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Am I right in assuming that our C-130J at MP still carries air drop Sub-Smash gear. Have SPAG been deployed to offer assistance?
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 12:40
  #64 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Top Bunk Tester View Post
Am I right in assuming that our C-130J at MP still carries air drop Sub-Smash gear. Have SPAG been deployed to offer assistance?
A Falkland Islands twitter account posted pictures of SPAG (kit laid out) ready and waiting in the FIs the other day.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 12:59
  #65 (permalink)  
 
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Hello all,

Flash traffic. A bouy has beed detected. ARA Brown has visual contact and investigating now.

Hoping is the sub.

Regards to all,
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:02
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by air pig View Post
Even if their special forces were on board they would not have the gases either mixtures or quantity to ascend from that depth (75m) on board allowing for decompression stops required to eliminate Nitrogen from the bloodstream. Read an autobiography from and ex SBS man, they used Oxygen for very shallow operations otherwise air for normal operations. If they had to approach a target unless a beach/installation recce they would surface and go in with canoes.

Even if the divers escaped, unless there was someone on the surface, what would they do then?

Unless this boat is found soon then I suspect that the outcome will be tragedy for all concerned.
They could ascend from 75m on open-circuit air, but it would be dangerous. The pp02 would be about 1.8 which is at high end of tolerance, but they would only be subject to high levels for a short period during initial ascent. They would not need any decompression stops as they would only be at 75m for a minute or two before leaving the water-lock. They could ascend with some form of collapsible or inflatable boat. I should disclose that I am an experienced technical diver, certified down to 90m on trimix open-circuit, and 80m on rebreathers.

Our SBS use Divex rebreathers with oxygen for shallow operations (<6m) and nitrox for down to about 24m. The RN FDU clearance divers use Divex rebreathers down to 80m using helium as diluent.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:03
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Top Bunk Tester View Post
Am I right in assuming that our C-130J at MP still carries air drop Sub-Smash gear. Have SPAG been deployed to offer assistance?
Last time I saw SPAG on exercise they were loading up a C-17.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:21
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
They could ascend from 75m on open-circuit air, but it would be dangerous. The pp02 would be about 1.8 which is at high end of tolerance, but they would only be subject to high levels for a short period during initial ascent. They would not need any decompression stops as they would only be at 75m for a minute or two before leaving the water-lock. They could ascend with some form of collapsible or inflatable boat. I should disclose that I am an experienced technical diver, certified down to 90m on trimix open-circuit, and 80m on rebreathers.

Our SBS use Divex rebreathers with oxygen for shallow operations (<6m) and nitrox for down to about 24m. The RN FDU clearance divers use Divex rebreathers down to 80m using helium as diluent.
Sir, you have my total respect as a recreational diver but I do think happily that people who operate at those depths are slightly if not completely mad. having met a fleet clearence diver, fantasic guy and in the water he was amazing, just so comfortable.

Two questions though, a) would they have the correct gases available and b) does the boat have a lock out chamber which being the type it is I would think not. Don't the submarines normally come to just on the surface allowing the decks to wash to let SF teams out or like the USN use SDS equipment.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:38
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Originally Posted by air pig View Post
Sir, you have my total respect as a recreational diver but I do think happily that people who operate at those depths are slightly if not completely mad. having met a fleet clearence diver, fantasic guy and in the water he was amazing, just so comfortable.

Two questions though, a) would they have the correct gases available and b) does the boat have a lock out chamber which being the type it is I would think not. Don't the submarines normally come to just on the surface allowing the decks to wash to let SF teams out or like the USN use SDS equipment.
The SBS used to be able to egress from submerged submarines - i would guess they still have the capability now. But as you can imagine it takes a lot of training, and I doubt anybody would want to try it from 75m. I don't know whether the Buzeo Tacticos have the capability.

As I said earlier, it would be perfectly possible to surface from 75m using compressed air. An oxygen partial pressure of 1.8 is higher than generally risked by sensible divers (we use a max of 1.4 on bottom, and 1.6 on deco stops), but USN divers do go to 2.0 in extremis and for short periods. It would not even require much gas - ascent would take about 4 mins, at average depth of around 5ATA, so approx 20*4*5 = 400l - so easily possible even with a tiny 5l tank.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:46
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Originally Posted by Wycombe View Post
I see that an RAF A330 is currently (1215Z 22nd) routing over Argentina (passed overhead Buenos Aires about 15 mins ago) at FL400 having left Brize last night at around 2215Z

A very unusual occurence in itself, I suspect must be related to the rescue effort?

Before anyone asks/comments, this is clearly visible in the public domain on FR24!
Looks like it is going to Commodoro Rivadavia. 1346Z it has just left FL400, is about 130nm out from CR, on direct course.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:47
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
The SBS used to be able to egress from submerged submarines - i would guess they still have the capability now. But as you can imagine it takes a lot of training, and I doubt anybody would want to try it from 75m. I don't know whether the Buzeo Tacticos have the capability.

As I said earlier, it would be perfectly possible to surface from 75m using compressed air. An oxygen partial pressure of 1.8 is higher than generally risked by sensible divers (we use a max of 1.4 on bottom, and 1.6 on deco stops), but USN divers do go to 2.0 in extremis and for short periods. It would not even require much gas - ascent would take about 4 mins, at average depth of around 5ATA, so approx 20*4*5 = 400l - so easily possible even with a tiny 5l tank.
Thank you for your comments, would they need to be placed in a chamber in the event of such an ascent? Would a German designed and built submarine have a need for a lock out chamber in view of their normally relatively shallow water operations? Having had a tour round an 'O' class submarine I didn't notice a chamber?

As I said before, respect but you are all mad completely mad.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:49
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Looks like it is going to Commodoro Rivadavia
Indeed. If FR24 is correct, that's a >15.5 hour sortie direct from the UK.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:51
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Originally Posted by Wycombe View Post
Indeed. If FR24 is correct, that's a >15.5 hour sortie direct from the UK.
May have been out of the FI.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:55
  #74 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by air pig View Post
Thank you for your comments, would they need to be placed in a chamber in the event of such an ascent?
No, definitely not. Inside the sub, they are at 1ATA, so have no deco obligation. They would just ascend from depth - so would have a "bottom time" too short to have any deco obligation.

The Oberon class had an escape compartment which was used for underwater escape but also egress. You can read how it was used here:

https://maritime.org/doc/oberon/escape/index.htm#pg12
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 13:57
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May have been out of the FI
It appears not, the FR24 track shows it leaving BZZ at 2219Z last night and taking a pretty-much straight line route all the way from the UK SW approaches.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 14:04
  #76 (permalink)  
 
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Just noticed this in La Nación:

"El protector buque polar inglés había divisado tres bengalas hacia el Este. Dos blancas y una naranja. Esto fue informado a Puerto Belgrano y se ordenó el despliegue de tres unidades de superficie para que hagan un patrullaje", explicó.

HMS Protector has spotted three flares (two white and one orange) towards the East. Three aircraft are one the way to carry out search patrol.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 14:10
  #77 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by muppetofthenorth View Post
A Falkland Islands twitter account posted pictures of SPAG (kit laid out) ready and waiting in the FIs the other day.
https://twitter.com/gav424/status/932773699278852097
32773699278852097
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 14:11
  #78 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
No, definitely not. Inside the sub, they are at 1ATA, so have no deco obligation. They would just ascend from depth - so would have a "bottom time" too short to have any deco obligation.

The Oberon class had an escape compartment which was used for underwater escape but also egress. You can read how it was used here:

https://maritime.org/doc/oberon/escape/index.htm#pg12
Thanks for that, now know why I'd never want to be a submariner, bad enough on a normal day, can't imagine how I'd be when ot all went wrong. Tips hat to the guys and girls on boats. Watching 'Das Boot' was bad enough and that was a drama.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 14:26
  #79 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
Just noticed this in La Nación:

"El protector buque polar inglés había divisado tres bengalas hacia el Este. Dos blancas y una naranja. Esto fue informado a Puerto Belgrano y se ordenó el despliegue de tres unidades de superficie para que hagan un patrullaje", explicó.

HMS Protector has spotted three flares (two white and one orange) towards the East. Three aircraft are one the way to carry out search patrol.
Now discounted by Armada Argentina - the San Juan has only red flares.
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Old 22nd Nov 2017, 14:45
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab View Post
Now discounted by Armada Argentina - the San Juan has only red flares.

Which begs the question who fired the flares?

There can't be that many vessels around there. It certainly warrants proper investigation.
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