The Arrows at Akrotiri
A bizjet pilot at Farnborough told me an ex RA had gone for a job interview with his company; every sentence he uttered contained the words 'in the Red Arrows we...'.
He didn't get the job.
Mind you, Ryanair aren't too particular who they take on but I suppose if you only want a 'temporary' job you'd go to them anyway.
Last edited by chevvron; 24th Jan 2018 at 09:24.
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I'm going back a few years.
Individually, I found Red Arrows pilots to be professional, welcoming and thoroughly pleasant. Some were a cut above the rest, Charlie Mc springs to mind. However, put them together and they behaved like a sqn of Harrier prima donnas, probably because they were mostly Harrier prime donnas.
I had occasion to 'cross' them a couple of times where they perceived they could play an exemption card as far as basic, non-aerobatic, rules were concerned. This was disappointing but of course they had a direct line to a two-star.
The Reds are the front end of the RAF PR setup and they do a fantastic job. I hope that the ethos has matured and there is now realisation that there's also a need for "internal PR". It would also be interesting to understand the relationship with MAA and, cognisant of the recent Flt Lt Cunningham case, I wonder if the right level of investment is being made in areas more wide-ranging than just than 9 blokes, their tailored flying suits and HOTAC.
Individually, I found Red Arrows pilots to be professional, welcoming and thoroughly pleasant. Some were a cut above the rest, Charlie Mc springs to mind. However, put them together and they behaved like a sqn of Harrier prima donnas, probably because they were mostly Harrier prime donnas.
I had occasion to 'cross' them a couple of times where they perceived they could play an exemption card as far as basic, non-aerobatic, rules were concerned. This was disappointing but of course they had a direct line to a two-star.
The Reds are the front end of the RAF PR setup and they do a fantastic job. I hope that the ethos has matured and there is now realisation that there's also a need for "internal PR". It would also be interesting to understand the relationship with MAA and, cognisant of the recent Flt Lt Cunningham case, I wonder if the right level of investment is being made in areas more wide-ranging than just than 9 blokes, their tailored flying suits and HOTAC.
Chevvron
Your story is essentially a ‘fat bloke down the pub told me so it must be true’ kind of tale.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t.
CGB
Things have definitely changed so you can rest easy.
BV
Your story is essentially a ‘fat bloke down the pub told me so it must be true’ kind of tale.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t.
CGB
Things have definitely changed so you can rest easy.
BV
Acksherley I got it from one of the pilots doing the interviewing who took the trouble to PM me to tell me about it.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BV, WIW is not confined to RA bell ends and is common across the field. We spent so long learning drills and procedures, polishing turds etc, that we think what we learnt is best practice. It may indeed be gold plated but not make commercial sense.
It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.
It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.
BV, WIW is not confined to RA bell ends and is common across the field. We spent so long learning drills and procedures, polishing turds etc, that we think what we learnt is best practice. It may indeed be gold plated but not make commercial sense.
It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.
It can take time to adjust. Hopefully someone had a quiet word in RAs shell like.
I have got a tale to tell about the Red Arrows* but I'll save it to see where this thread goes because it's a bit controversial.
*Edited 'cos of a misunderstanding.
Last edited by chevvron; 23rd Jan 2018 at 15:58.
OK you asked for it.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.
And you wonder why I don't like them.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.
And you wonder why I don't like them.
OK you asked for it.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.
And you wonder why I don't like them.
Sunny sunday afternoon in June many years ago. Reds still based at Kemble but had re-equipped with Hawks, displaying at Biggin that weekend.
Instructor at Blackbushe decides it's not too busy so sends a student up on his first solo.
Instructor watches him round the circuit. As the aircraft is established on base leg and starts descent, nine red painted Hawks appear from the east, stream smoke and fly UNDERNEATH the student. No RTF call, no prior warning, straight through the circuit and ATZ. Student frightened to death but lands safely.
First thing monday morning, instructor phones me up (I was a controller at Farnborough at the time and flew with his club) and tells me what happened and what should he do. This of course was in the days when we only worked mon - fri.
As soon as I mention 'written reports' he doesn't want to know, neither does the FISO who was on duty at the time.
So no reports, no action taken. I couldn't report it as I wasn't a witness so it would just be 'hearsay'.
And you wonder why I don't like them.
Sorry reading it now it is easily misunderstood so I've edited it.
Funny enough, she did an interview in Farnborough Tower with Reg Turnill about that time - she interviewing him.
I worked out a few years ago that if she really is the age she claims to be now, she must have been only 15 or 16 when she conducted the interview.
Funny enough, she did an interview in Farnborough Tower with Reg Turnill about that time - she interviewing him.
I worked out a few years ago that if she really is the age she claims to be now, she must have been only 15 or 16 when she conducted the interview.
[QUOTE=chevvron;10028959]Wasn't Carol Vorderman 'friendly' with an ex RA who is now her ex BF?
Yes - for those that can't recall just Google news articles.
Before that, BBC newsreader Jan Leeming with another.
Yes - for those that can't recall just Google news articles.
Before that, BBC newsreader Jan Leeming with another.
chevvron
The OP was asking when the 2018 team will be in Cyprus and you go banging-on about an alleged incident from 40 years ago. Come on Terry , I bet you'd have bitten his arm off if the leader back in '86 had offered you a ride when you were on your ATC camp.
I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.
I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.
The OP was asking when the 2018 team will be in Cyprus and you go banging-on about an alleged incident from 40 years ago. Come on Terry , I bet you'd have bitten his arm off if the leader back in '86 had offered you a ride when you were on your ATC camp.
I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.
I don't know of many ex-Reds but it may surprise you to know that former members have ended up with all sorts of airlines, including BA, Virgin, Cathay etc. As for being know-alls, several of my mates had stories to tell of ex-Herc' pilots who couldn't keep their traps shut when on their first course with an airline.
My pilot was a certain Flt Lt Roger Moore (no not THAT Roger Moore) whom I had first met 14 years previously when we were both founder members of (don't laugh) the Chorleywood Branch of Air Britain! It started nice and gentle, the students formating on us, being waved off and by means of hand signals, re- formating in a different formation.
Then came the tailchase; 20 min of Roger deliberately trying to 'lose' the students by aerobatting all over the sky of North Wales, constantly varying between +5g and -3g all the while encountering buffet. It was the best flight I've ever had.
When the Reds appeared at Akrotiri I tried to keep neutral but the regular station staff, plus 100 Sqdn (flying Canberras long before they got Hawks), seemed to have the same opinion of them as me, judging by what happened in the bar every evening.
Edited to remove incorrect and ambiguous statements.
Last edited by chevvron; 24th Jan 2018 at 08:32.
I had a holding job with them for the best part of a year in the early 2000s. I found every single one of them (from the Wing Co and Boss all the way to the Ops staff) to be not only extremely professional but also very friendly and likeable. I didn’t get any grief for being a young holding officer at all (not beyond the usual banter anyway); rather, I was made to feel part of the team and always felt accepted.
I was messing at Waddo for the duration and upon hearing where I was holding virtually every single liver-in mentioned something about “those w@nkers”. Eventually, I asked the Reds’ boss why everyone described them thus and he told me that in the past they had recruited numerous pilots of undeniable flying ability but who were, in all honesty, exactly as described by the Waddo bunch (and everyone else). He said that they had changed their recruitment policy and focused closely on personality as well as ability - something that I saw firsthand. He also said that significant damage had been done to their reputation within the RAF and they knew that it would take a long time to completely rebuild it, but it was something that they were determined to do.
It seems to me that first impressions really do count and many people have negative first impressions of RAFAT. I, however, have nothing but fond memories of my time with them and it was a real privilege seeing them doing their thing.
I was messing at Waddo for the duration and upon hearing where I was holding virtually every single liver-in mentioned something about “those w@nkers”. Eventually, I asked the Reds’ boss why everyone described them thus and he told me that in the past they had recruited numerous pilots of undeniable flying ability but who were, in all honesty, exactly as described by the Waddo bunch (and everyone else). He said that they had changed their recruitment policy and focused closely on personality as well as ability - something that I saw firsthand. He also said that significant damage had been done to their reputation within the RAF and they knew that it would take a long time to completely rebuild it, but it was something that they were determined to do.
It seems to me that first impressions really do count and many people have negative first impressions of RAFAT. I, however, have nothing but fond memories of my time with them and it was a real privilege seeing them doing their thing.
Chevvron
I’ve done tailchasing and I’ve flown in every position in the Reds. Whilst the front five is a reasonably sedate experience (certain manoeuvres such as roll backs are certainly not), I can assure you that the back four is anything but. It’s as violent as anything I’ve ever done in a Hawk.
As for the rest of your statements it’s starting to sound like a Reds pilot once stole your girlfriend or something.
Whilst I’m sure there have been a few bad apples over the years can you really tar them all with the same brush?
As I’ve said before, perception is key. You perceived that they were a bunch of prima donnas for not letting pax fly with them. I’ve flown many pax over the years and I can assure you that very few non-FJ aircrew would be able to handle the rigours of the backseat in a display practice with no g pants (yes I know that has finally changed).
You think that’s unfair but do you think it would help their display work up to have a bunch of vomiting or unconscious pax flopping around in the back?
Still, I doubt I’ll ever change your mind but sometimes facts can help to dispel rumours.
BV
As for the rest of your statements it’s starting to sound like a Reds pilot once stole your girlfriend or something.
Whilst I’m sure there have been a few bad apples over the years can you really tar them all with the same brush?
As I’ve said before, perception is key. You perceived that they were a bunch of prima donnas for not letting pax fly with them. I’ve flown many pax over the years and I can assure you that very few non-FJ aircrew would be able to handle the rigours of the backseat in a display practice with no g pants (yes I know that has finally changed).
You think that’s unfair but do you think it would help their display work up to have a bunch of vomiting or unconscious pax flopping around in the back?
Still, I doubt I’ll ever change your mind but sometimes facts can help to dispel rumours.
BV
As I’ve said before, perception is key. You perceived that they were a bunch of prima donnas for not letting pax fly with them. I’ve flown many pax over the years and I can assure you that very few non-FJ aircrew would be able to handle the rigours of the backseat in a display practice with no g pants (yes I know that has finally changed).
You think that’s unfair but do you think it would help their display work up to have a bunch of vomiting or unconscious pax flopping around in the back?
Still, I doubt I’ll ever change your mind but sometimes facts can help to dispel rumours.
BV
As for flying back seat without a 'g' suit, I was fitted with one for my Valley flight and I'm glad I was. Course I'm not talking about situations where they position in with a crewman in the back seat; I presume they don't have a g suit but then it's not a display is it.
About 6 weeks after my Hawk ride, back at Farnborough, I was given the chance to fly in a Hunter. I didn't have a g suit for that flight and experienced 'grey out' as we pulled through a loop at 5.5g. I'd heard about grey outs and to experience it myself was very interesting.
Edited to correct ambiguous statements
Last edited by chevvron; 24th Jan 2018 at 08:38.
Chevvron
The problem we have here is that you base your arguments on supposition and hearsay.
I prefer facts and personal experience.
You have made several unsubstantiated statements such as:
The tail chase was far more violent than anything the Reds do (I have shown you that is not true).
They offered no back seat rides (I explained why).
The Canberra guys all felt the same (did they, really?! All of them?).
They chose not to allow g suits in the back (it was to prevent snagging of the controls, although this rule has now been relaxed).
Anyway, despite how it looks I’m not trying to start a fight. I just hate sweeping generalisations, especially when they are based on experiences from several decades ago.
Tin hat on.
BV
I prefer facts and personal experience.
You have made several unsubstantiated statements such as:
The tail chase was far more violent than anything the Reds do (I have shown you that is not true).
They offered no back seat rides (I explained why).
The Canberra guys all felt the same (did they, really?! All of them?).
They chose not to allow g suits in the back (it was to prevent snagging of the controls, although this rule has now been relaxed).
Anyway, despite how it looks I’m not trying to start a fight. I just hate sweeping generalisations, especially when they are based on experiences from several decades ago.
Tin hat on.
BV