Typhoon crash in Italy
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: raf
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A couple of questions if I may?
Does Typhoon not have an automated protection system to prevent G-LOC induced issues?
When its said that Typhoon can 'bite' what does that mean-isn't it almost impossible to depart from controlled flight due to the automation in the Flight control system?
Does Typhoon not have an automated protection system to prevent G-LOC induced issues?
When its said that Typhoon can 'bite' what does that mean-isn't it almost impossible to depart from controlled flight due to the automation in the Flight control system?
I think it's called Disoriented Recovery Function.
To answer you second question, a lot of aircraft have flying control computers that won't but the aircraft into a stall or spin. I believe this stall preventer once caused an Airbus to crash during a low and slow flypast when the computers prevented an increase in pitch as the Airbus was approaching a forest at the end of the runway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296
Last edited by gr4techie; 26th Sep 2017 at 12:39.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: upstairs
Posts: 208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are aspects of the crew systems which help protect aircrew against the effects of normal acceleration: full coverage anti-g trousers, pressure breathing with g and chest counter pressure garment, etc. The FCS can also be programmed to slug the g onset rate but this isn't considered a good thing for military fast jets since it runs counter to the agility requirements.
EAP
EAP
Last edited by EAP86; 26th Sep 2017 at 14:03. Reason: Autocorrect changed agility to ability
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
A Van has a point, you don't need to scrape the ground to impress. B2N2, the Vulcan crash at Chicago and the Nimrod crash in Canada were pure display crashes, crashes that never occurred in routine flying.
There seems to be a little gremlin that causes some to push too hard to impress. Joe Public is ignorant of most display dynamics and would be quite happy to see the aircraft and not expect it to display at the edges of its envelope.
There seems to be a little gremlin that causes some to push too hard to impress. Joe Public is ignorant of most display dynamics and would be quite happy to see the aircraft and not expect it to display at the edges of its envelope.
It doesn't have a fully automatic "hands off" system. But a button the pilot can press. Then the flying control computers will then automatically get the Typhoon straight and level (or slightly nose up? I can't remember?)
I think it's called Disoriented Recovery Function.
To answer you second question, a lot of aircraft have flying control computers that won't but the aircraft into a stall or spin. I believe this stall preventer once caused an Airbus to crash during a low and slow flypast when the computers prevented an increase in pitch as the Airbus was approaching a forest at the end of the runway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296
I think it's called Disoriented Recovery Function.
To answer you second question, a lot of aircraft have flying control computers that won't but the aircraft into a stall or spin. I believe this stall preventer once caused an Airbus to crash during a low and slow flypast when the computers prevented an increase in pitch as the Airbus was approaching a forest at the end of the runway.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296
Thank you gr4techie
I had thought maybe that if a pilot G-LOC ed that the release in pressure from the stick would be detected and this function would be automatically activated by the on board computers. It would seem not.
Salute!
Still waiting to have an actual Tiffie pilot contribute.
Seems to be that if an experienced pilot prangs a seemingly full-up jet, and I flew one of the type, then I would want to know everything or at least help with "rumour control".
============
Over on the F-16.net there's info about the Viper "recovery" system should Hal determine you had better do something or you'll die!!! I and many of we early Viper pilots voted against this back in 1980 or 1981. The technology wasn't there and we also wanted to have the nose down for weapon delivery and knew we would recover before impact unless we "pressed" ( as Pontious implied). The newer technology and the detection of "reasonable" impact criteria for Hal to take over seems to have the support of most Viper pilots.
I have HUD video of a super fighter pilot that went too far and you don't see the sage brush until 2 seconds before impact. Accident investigation figured he might have made it by a few hundred feet if he pulled when the large, flashing "x" in the HUD appeared.
RE: g-suits
The gee-loc can happen if you pull real hard, real fast and have not trapped blood in your brain. The new suits and slight over pressure help for sustained fights, but you can still stop your brain if the blood drains out in a second!!!
RE: demo parameters
The numbers do not lie and they allow a margin of error to allow for weather, winds and maybe even pilot performance!! The Thunderbird crash and the Blue Angel crash and the F-18 crash in St Louis years ago and the Hunter crash and possibly this one probably share the same cause - failure to achieve the initial entry conditions for the maneuver. There's also the possiblity of pilot actions even tho the maneuver started O.K.
Look up some simple equations for turn radius versus speed and gee. Regardless of your AoA ( that you may need to get the gee), the laws of physics/math are still valid.
With all gee directed toward the center of the turn, you can get a rough idea of turn radius using: r = v squared/a where a is gee*32.2 and v is in ft/sec
Work this out for the Viper in a horizontal turn pulling 9 gees at 360 knots and you will be surprised.
A sad day in Italy, and pray not to see another like it for a long, long time.
Gums sends...
Still waiting to have an actual Tiffie pilot contribute.
Seems to be that if an experienced pilot prangs a seemingly full-up jet, and I flew one of the type, then I would want to know everything or at least help with "rumour control".
============
Over on the F-16.net there's info about the Viper "recovery" system should Hal determine you had better do something or you'll die!!! I and many of we early Viper pilots voted against this back in 1980 or 1981. The technology wasn't there and we also wanted to have the nose down for weapon delivery and knew we would recover before impact unless we "pressed" ( as Pontious implied). The newer technology and the detection of "reasonable" impact criteria for Hal to take over seems to have the support of most Viper pilots.
I have HUD video of a super fighter pilot that went too far and you don't see the sage brush until 2 seconds before impact. Accident investigation figured he might have made it by a few hundred feet if he pulled when the large, flashing "x" in the HUD appeared.
RE: g-suits
The gee-loc can happen if you pull real hard, real fast and have not trapped blood in your brain. The new suits and slight over pressure help for sustained fights, but you can still stop your brain if the blood drains out in a second!!!
RE: demo parameters
The numbers do not lie and they allow a margin of error to allow for weather, winds and maybe even pilot performance!! The Thunderbird crash and the Blue Angel crash and the F-18 crash in St Louis years ago and the Hunter crash and possibly this one probably share the same cause - failure to achieve the initial entry conditions for the maneuver. There's also the possiblity of pilot actions even tho the maneuver started O.K.
Look up some simple equations for turn radius versus speed and gee. Regardless of your AoA ( that you may need to get the gee), the laws of physics/math are still valid.
With all gee directed toward the center of the turn, you can get a rough idea of turn radius using: r = v squared/a where a is gee*32.2 and v is in ft/sec
Work this out for the Viper in a horizontal turn pulling 9 gees at 360 knots and you will be surprised.
A sad day in Italy, and pray not to see another like it for a long, long time.
Gums sends...
Someone asked "why do they do it": a very good question. Of my 6 friends or acquaintances that have been killed while flying, one was shot down, one suffered a technical fault and the other 4 were all either displaying or preparing to display. Another 2 had career-ending occurrences on display duties. This seems wholly disproportionate to me. Are we taking too little risk in every other aspect of flying, or too much in displaying?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Easy Street, very much deviation but a basic question: What is the purpose of an air display?
A station sponsored display was at one time to achieve a maximum charity take for the glory of said station commander. PR, recruiting and crowd enjoyment were spin offs but hardly core business.
How much does an air display cost? Big bucks. How many recruits join the air force each display season? Not a lot. Big Bucks divided by Not a Lot is not a very good cot/benefit. Throw in training time for practice and the diversion of that time from real training. Then consider the cost of just a single crash.
There are probably more civilian displays in UK now than military ones but the military still perform their.
It is probable that more recruits come through exposure through the Air Training Corps and CCF than seeing an airshow. I was 10 when I saw my first impromptu display at Hooton Park and a fg off when I saw my second.
So, What is the purpose of an air display today?
A station sponsored display was at one time to achieve a maximum charity take for the glory of said station commander. PR, recruiting and crowd enjoyment were spin offs but hardly core business.
How much does an air display cost? Big bucks. How many recruits join the air force each display season? Not a lot. Big Bucks divided by Not a Lot is not a very good cot/benefit. Throw in training time for practice and the diversion of that time from real training. Then consider the cost of just a single crash.
There are probably more civilian displays in UK now than military ones but the military still perform their.
It is probable that more recruits come through exposure through the Air Training Corps and CCF than seeing an airshow. I was 10 when I saw my first impromptu display at Hooton Park and a fg off when I saw my second.
So, What is the purpose of an air display today?
Easy Street
Looking back (many years I hasten to add) at my cohort from basic days I've come up with similar attrition figures to yours. My feeling back in the day, and is now, is there is no mystery to this, it is simply that display flying is just utterly unforgiving. I'm pretty sure I bust base a few times ACMing in the F-4...and I saw base height stuffed more that a few times in my basic Instructing days but base was at 5 or 10 k.... I had fairly aggressive display with regards to negative g in the JP (if that is possible) that I wouldn't have dreamt taking down to almost ground level. I always had a fairly wide yellow streak down the middle of my back and reckoned if you rolled the dice often enough display flying at fairly low level your number was going to come up....not because of negligence or lack of ability, but simply because the display flying environment was utterly unforgiving of even the smallest error. Whilst in the mob I lost mates in display accidents ( one in the Reds, two more in the Abingdon F-4, one in a Meteor) and even though I left the high energy stuff three decades back I have continued to lose or seen colleagues seriously injured doing display flying in their spare time ( warbirds, vintage fast jets)...
. Are we taking too little risk in every other aspect of flying, or too much in displaying?
Gums, or those here who've actually driven fast jets - a question.
Would the difficulty in visually judging height over water possibly have been a contributing factor here?
When flying such a sequence, how much of a HUD and instrument scan do you keep going - I would have thought you'd aim to nail the gates very closely and would be constantly cross checking the picture outside with what the HUD or instruments were showing you?
Is it a temptation to get locked into looking outside the cockpit and thinking - "...yeah that visually looks/feels pretty much like the right height - I've got enough room."?
Would the difficulty in visually judging height over water possibly have been a contributing factor here?
When flying such a sequence, how much of a HUD and instrument scan do you keep going - I would have thought you'd aim to nail the gates very closely and would be constantly cross checking the picture outside with what the HUD or instruments were showing you?
Is it a temptation to get locked into looking outside the cockpit and thinking - "...yeah that visually looks/feels pretty much like the right height - I've got enough room."?
Not relevant by the looks of it if in this case but I always felt that rolling gates were the hardest to define (or even enumerate) .... as for pitching.....what IMHO also needed to be thought through was the realisation that even with what looks a straight forward pitching manoeuvre it wasn't just an attitude and a height, there was also an IAS involved..as one of my colleagues sadly discovered....(he got the height, he got the attitude, but stuffed the speed up and continued past the verical too fast)
(Again I'll emphasise this is very much the POV of a ham fisted individual who never did an aeros sequence in a jet below 5000' .....but lost friends that did)
(Again I'll emphasise this is very much the POV of a ham fisted individual who never did an aeros sequence in a jet below 5000' .....but lost friends that did)
Hi Wiggy,
Couldn't agree more, if you do this kind of stuff long enough eventually you will step on your dick, we've all seen chums leave us earlier than expected.
I suppose even during raging peace we'll lose a few; luckily I manged 20 years with just a couple of "minors".
T+9 See you in November?
Couldn't agree more, if you do this kind of stuff long enough eventually you will step on your dick, we've all seen chums leave us earlier than expected.
I suppose even during raging peace we'll lose a few; luckily I manged 20 years with just a couple of "minors".
T+9 See you in November?
Salute!
@ Tart.....
Yeppers, the water will bite you compared to good old Earth.
We lost one over the Great Salt Lake when zero wind, overcast and the water was like a mirror. Some "chop" really helps.
You really have to fly those low routines as if on instruments.
Gums sends...
@ Tart.....
Yeppers, the water will bite you compared to good old Earth.
We lost one over the Great Salt Lake when zero wind, overcast and the water was like a mirror. Some "chop" really helps.
You really have to fly those low routines as if on instruments.
Gums sends...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Joe Public also patronized the public beer tent. The aim was a day out with tat stores, play ground, food hall, the display was very secondary.
